Synchro issue? and Dealership woes.

[lextrueno]

WHY DA F@#$ YOU LYING. WHY YOU ALWAYS LYING. OMG. STOP @#$(*& LYING. Buckle up for a long one, TLDR is at the bottom.

So I picked up the frs and it felt like I got scolded at the dealership....

Let me explain. I bought my FRS recently in July of this year with about 14k miles. I am now at 21k miles. I drive my car as a daily. Nothing crazy is done to the car right now. It is pretty much stock.
I should let you know that I am fairly young and work as an engineer. I'm 5'5" and I don't have enough facial hair to look like wolverine so I am not at all intimidating. If you were to see me on the weekend, you would think I was some punk kid whose parents spoiled me with a decent car. Not the case. But you will see why this is relevant soon.

I turned it over to the service crew because shifting from 3rd to 4th felt a little chunky. No grinds, but I could tell it wasn't smooth when I was at higher rpms and harder to shift. The speed of shifting into 4th didn't matter; however, it was more prevalent at higher RPM. It is fairly consistent and believe there is an issue or a future issue. I turned it over to the technicians and told them what I was experiencing. I told them just that the shifts weren't smooth as they should be. Especially in third gear to fourth. They wrote the following after I had picked the car up.

Official statement: " customer states when shifting from 3rd gear to 4th gear at 60-76 mph transmission will grind when going into gear. Could not duplicate concern. Test drove a few times and did not hear or feel concern, note at those speeds and third gear is hitting redlining rpms should not be that high."

I didn't explicitly say grind so okay sure. 3rd gear redlines closer to 80 or so. I found that I get to 76 around 6k in third with plenty of room. I'm not being exact but I know for a fact I am not redlining the car at that speed. Which means they are trying to play some games with me. The car DOES NOT redline at that speed although it is high in RPM. Also if there was concern of hitting the redline, there wouldn't be a redline there. It is engineered to keep the engine and transmission safe; otherwise, the redline would have been lower.. And I typically am not banging gears out while driving. I am very smooth with my inputs and when spirited driving I don't really thrash the car.

When I actually went in to get my car one of the techs pulled me aside and told me "Food for thought, but you need to seriously think about driving easy on those cars" I tuned out after he said this because I didn't believe I am at fault or needed to be lectured about cars. I have turned wrenches and am mechanically savvy. I get that he was watching out for me and was giving me some advice. But what if my 86 was a new corvette or a new *insert sports car model* and I had been older? Do you think the techs would have said "listen lead foot, you shouldn't be driving your car so hard." I am sure the warranty doesn't cover negligence but I have done nothing to the transmission that would cause fault other than daily driving it. I may be wrong... However....

I feel like my age and also the fact that my car has light cosmetic mods made them think I was some ricer punk that doesn't know how to drive. I felt like I was being talked down to. No where does it say "Our warranty is valid AS LONG AS YOU STAY BELOW 4K RPM."

I won't give any names but it was a strange, first experience...
So now I have to ask myself what is the next step? I have heard that the 86 has issues in the transmission and I feel like this is an early warning that something might go bad. I would like to do a turbo build and having transmission concerns this early is a little unnerving. I love this car and don't want to trade to a different platform. HELP ME OUT MUCHACHOS.

TLDR I think I have some issues with my synchros and I had a bad experience with the dealership. Should I go for changing the transmission oil myself and see if that clears up the problem? Or try another dealership and bring someone who is more intimidating to see if they can fix it. Any advice would be helpful.

[pantdino]

Originally Posted by lextrueno

WHY DA F@#$ YOU LYING. WHY YOU ALWAYS LYING. OMG. STOP @#$(*& LYING. Buckle up for a long one, TLDR is at the bottom.

So I picked up the frs and it felt like I got scolded at the dealership....

Let me explain. I bought my FRS recently in July of this year with about 14k miles. I am now at 21k miles. I drive my car as a daily. Nothing crazy is done to the car right now. It is pretty much stock.
I should let you know that I am fairly young and work as an engineer. I'm 5'5" and I don't have enough facial hair to look like wolverine so I am not at all intimidating. If you were to see me on the weekend, you would think I was some punk kid whose parents spoiled me with a decent car. Not the case. But you will see why this is relevant soon.

I turned it over to the service crew because shifting from 3rd to 4th felt a little chunky. No grinds, but I could tell it wasn't smooth when I was at higher rpms and harder to shift. The speed of shifting into 4th didn't matter; however, it was more prevalent at higher RPM. It is fairly consistent and believe there is an issue or a future issue. I turned it over to the technicians and told them what I was experiencing. I told them just that the shifts weren't smooth as they should be. Especially in third gear to fourth. They wrote the following after I had picked the car up.

Official statement: " customer states when shifting from 3rd gear to 4th gear at 60-76 mph transmission will grind when going into gear. Could not duplicate concern. Test drove a few times and did not hear or feel concern, note at those speeds and third gear is hitting redlining rpms should not be that high."

I didn't explicitly say grind so okay sure. 3rd gear redlines closer to 80 or so. I found that I get to 76 around 6k in third with plenty of room. I'm not being exact but I know for a fact I am not redlining the car at that speed. Which means they are trying to play some games with me. The car DOES NOT redline at that speed although it is high in RPM. Also if there was concern of hitting the redline, there wouldn't be a redline there. It is engineered to keep the engine and transmission safe; otherwise, the redline would have been lower.. And I typically am not banging gears out while driving. I am very smooth with my inputs and when spirited driving I don't really thrash the car.

When I actually went in to get my car one of the techs pulled me aside and told me "Food for thought, but you need to seriously think about driving easy on those cars" I tuned out after he said this because I didn't believe I am at fault or needed to be lectured about cars. I have turned wrenches and am mechanically savvy. I get that he was watching out for me and was giving me some advice. But what if my 86 was a new corvette or a new *insert sports car model* and I had been older? Do you think the techs would have said "listen lead foot, you shouldn't be driving your car so hard." I am sure the warranty doesn't cover negligence but I have done nothing to the transmission that would cause fault other than daily driving it. I may be wrong... However....

I feel like my age and also the fact that my car has light cosmetic mods made them think I was some ricer punk that doesn't know how to drive. I felt like I was being talked down to. No where does it say "Our warranty is valid AS LONG AS YOU STAY BELOW 4K RPM."

I won't give any names but it was a strange, first experience...
So now I have to ask myself what is the next step? I have heard that the 86 has issues in the transmission and I feel like this is an early warning that something might go bad. I would like to do a turbo build and having transmission concerns this early is a little unnerving. I love this car and don't want to trade to a different platform. HELP ME OUT MUCHACHOS.

TLDR I think I have some issues with my synchros and I had a bad experience with the dealership. Should I go for changing the transmission oil myself and see if that clears up the problem? Or try another dealership and bring someone who is more intimidating to see if they can fix it. Any advice would be helpful.

My take on the tech's comment is different-- it may be that he has seen a higher than average rate of problems with these trannies and he is giving you some honest advice. Seems like a lot of cost-cutting went on in making these (ie, throw out bearings) and maybe the synchros are not the best in the world. You are not the first to complain re notchy shifting.

[Tcoat]

Ask to speak with the service manager. Dress and act in a professional manner and if you have a business card then present him/her with one. Keep your discussion and main focus related to the shifting issue and try to put aside your feelings about the perceived disrespect. At this point you are trying to get the car fixed not deal with the tech. Ask if you can demonstrate the issue to the techs. If they decline then ask to speak to the General Manager. If still no go then contact Scion themselves and explain the situation.


Now, if they do let you demonstrate and you can show them the issue it should go well from there. Should you not get the problem to occur then pack up and go home because without seeing something actually wrong there is little they can or will do.


Once you get things going on the repair is the time to discuss the techs attitude with the Service Manager. Explain that you felt demeaned or insulted by his comments and that as a customer you are curious as to how they would like to rectify it. You may get nothing out of it but who knows.


Above everything else remain calm and professional throughout the proceedings.

[lextrueno]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Ask to speak with the service manager. Dress and act in a professional manner and if you have a business card then present him/her with one. Keep your discussion and main focus related to the shifting issue and try to put aside your feelings about the perceived disrespect. At this point you are trying to get the car fixed not deal with the tech. Ask if you can demonstrate the issue to the techs. If they decline then ask to speak to the General Manager. If still no go then contact Scion themselves and explain the situation.


Now, if they do let you demonstrate and you can show them the issue it should go well from there. Should you not get the problem to occur then pack up and go home because without seeing something actually wrong there is little they can or will do.


Once you get things going on the repair is the time to discuss the techs attitude with the Service Manager. Explain that you felt demeaned or insulted by his comments and that as a customer you are curious as to how they would like to rectify it. You may get nothing out of it but who knows.


Above everything else remain calm and professional throughout the proceedings.

Its all about feel, there is no noise but shifting in high rpm in every gear is fairly smooth. Except 3rd to 4th. And I am not entirely sure how to demonstrate that or explain that to the tech. (I tried to the first time and it didn't work well.)

But yes, I am a chill guy and honestly I am not too worried about the "disrespect" I just want a solution.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by lextrueno

Its all about feel, there is no noise but shifting in high rpm in every gear is fairly smooth. Except 3rd to 4th. And I am not entirely sure how to demonstrate that or explain that to the tech. (I tried to the first time and it didn't work well.)

But yes, I am a chill guy and honestly I am not too worried about the "disrespect" I just want a solution.

Has it always done it or has something changed?

[lextrueno]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Has it always done it or has something changed?

I believe something changed since I bought it with 14k. Like I said earlier, I am wondering if it just needs a transmission oil change. I'm guessing the previous owner didn't change it....

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by lextrueno

I believe something changed since I bought it with 14k. Like I said earlier, I am wondering if it just needs a transmission oil change. I'm guessing the previous owner didn't change it....

I am still on the original oil at 50K miles and have no issues.
That being said some guys have indeed found improved shifting with and oil change so may be worth a shot. It is a relatively cheap and easy thing to try. Don't expect the dealer to spring for that though if they can not replicate the problem.

[BRZoomTX]

My transmission had the same issue, but mine was worse. Shifting from 3rd to 4th anything above 4k RPM had an audible grind. The issue started the same way... consistent rough and notchy shifts from only 3rd to 4th. Eventually the synchro gives up and you get the grinding. This developed from a notchy shift to audible grind within 7000 miles. Pre-owned bought at 26k, trans replaced at 33k.

Its covered under warranty, and the dealer just sounds like they don't want to do the work. Keep pressing the issue. In my case, they did do a full trans service before replacement due to it being pre-owned. Just to make sure the last owner didn't put in the wrong fluid because the tech noticed it looked to be recently drained. They charged ~$120 for this, which I felt was fair as I did end up getting a new transmission.

Get it replaced before you go turbo. It gets worse.

[lextrueno]

Originally Posted by BRZoomTX

My transmission had the same issue, but mine was worse. Shifting from 3rd to 4th anything above 4k RPM had an audible grind. The issue started the same way... consistent rough and notchy shifts from only 3rd to 4th. Eventually the synchro gives up and you get the grinding.

Its covered under warranty, and the dealer just sounds like they don't want to do the work. Keep pressing the issue. In my case, they did do a full trans service before replacement due to it being pre-owned. They charged ~$120 for this, which I felt was fair as I did end up getting a new transmission.

Get it replaced before you go turbo. It gets worse.

So I guess the best option is to wait until it starts to grind and then go back. My intuition tells me its going to get worse. I would normally be about preventative maintenance but if the dealer is going to be problematic, I feel like me telling them that my syncros are feeling worse, it won't get me anywhere

[BRZoomTX]

Originally Posted by lextrueno

So I guess the best option is to wait until it starts to grind and then go back. My intuition tells me its going to get worse. I would normally be about preventative maintenance but if the dealer is going to be problematic, I feel like me telling them that my syncros are feeling worse, it won't get me anywhere

Its difficult to convince them its an issue because there is no TSB for it. I'd say yes, once you get an audible grind then they should have no problem covering it.

Grinding synchros are clear indication of failure and are covered under the 60k powertrain warranty.

[Aztec]

+200% Do the trans oil swap and the diff oil swap with a good oil
motul 300, redline etc

Make sure you have the right weight for each. Once you have swapped the fluids and driven for 30 or so miles you WILL notice a difference. Hopefully that's all the issue is (especially at higher RPM)
GL

[lextrueno]

Originally Posted by Aztec

+200% Do the trans oil swap and the diff oil swap with a good oil
motul 300, redline etc

Make sure you have the right weight for each. Once you have swapped the fluids and driven for 30 or so miles you WILL notice a difference. Hopefully that's all the issue is (especially at higher RPM)
GL

Most of my fears lie from the Synchro post that is pinned within the "Problems of the beloved FRS/BRZ" post. They sound similar that some people were getting some nasty feeling when shifting from 3rd to 4th.

I was hoping the dealership was going to do a fix (repairs/rebuild) after getting a proper diagnosis. However that didn't happen. Which is why I held off from the oil change. Plans are to go to MOTUL 300v for the trans and diff.

Yes hopefully that is all there is @.@ I had to drive my old civic when it was in the shop... OMG. I can't go back to <120hp single dingle SOHC life.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by lextrueno

No where does it say "Our warranty is valid AS LONG AS YOU STAY BELOW 4K RPM."

"WHAT IS NOT COVERED
> Abuse or negligence
> Misuse — for example, racing or
overloading"
https://www.scion.com/cm-pdf/warranty/2013/fr-s.pdf

http://blog.extended-vehicle-warrant...ight-be-denied

They very could well deny your claim, then it would be an issue for the lawyers I think. anyone have more informaton?

"Basically, any driving that takes place outside the realm of everyday driving is grounds for a breach of warranty."
http://thelemonlawattorneys.com/blog...-car-warranty/

[lextrueno]

Originally Posted by totopo

"WHAT IS NOT COVERED
> Abuse or negligence
> Misuse — for example, racing or
overloading"
https://www.scion.com/cm-pdf/warranty/2013/fr-s.pdf

http://blog.extended-vehicle-warrant...ight-be-denied

They very could well deny your claim, then it would be an issue for the lawyers I think. anyone have more informaton?

"Basically, any driving that takes place outside the realm of everyday driving is grounds for a breach of warranty."
http://thelemonlawattorneys.com/blog...-car-warranty/

Abuse/negligence/overloading is what I was referring to above and I believe that has to do with downshifting past the rev limiter or terrible shifting technique. None of these things I have done. I wouldn't say that going close to redline is considered abuse. Driving in that range for extended periods of time in cases like racing would be considered abuse I guess. I have never launched the car either.

I have never raced off or on track so I don't have to worry there.