NA engine mods for turbo money?

[Turdinator]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I was talking about the intake header. I have a strong suspicion that the intake headers are detuning the top, giving a "broader" powerband.

Oh my bad

Originally Posted by serialk11r

The cams aren't too bad, but longer cams could allow some more high rpm overlap and slightly improved VE. The VVT "charts" that Toyota gave show there's something like 8? (I forgot what it was exactly) degrees that the cam opening point can be retarded past TDC. So add 8 degrees before the stock cam (to maintain a good idle and low load characteristics), maybe like 16 after the stock cam closes, then that will allow 8 degrees overlap with the intake valves closing 8 degrees after they used to, that should give a bit of a boost up top. You could add more and create some overlap at all times, but the more you do that obviously the worse the low load and low speed characteristics will be.

This all sounds good to me. I don't know the specifics of this engine yet but i imagine with such a high compression it is an interference motor. So surely longer duration will allow less movement before valve hits piston.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Turdinator

Oh my bad


This all sounds good to me. I don't know the specifics of this engine yet but i imagine with such a high compression it is an interference motor. So surely longer duration will allow less movement before valve hits piston.

Yea. But given that the intake cam in full advanced position opens way before TDC (the amount of overlap in the midrange is quite large!), I think it's safe to add duration, as long as one recalibrates the VVT so that in the midrange the motor doesn't try to advance the same amount and potentially mushroom the valves. Also the top end would require some experimentation to see how overlap vs. later valve closure tradeoff affects power. If the exhaust headers are tuned correctly then scavenging effect could be pretty strong.

[brichard0625]

Originally Posted by Turdinator

There is discussion on this in other threads. But basically on a dyno that gives a reading whilst accelerating an engine will show a gain. But the effect will differ depending on what gear you are in. Redusing the rotating mass is like reducing the cars weight but multiplied by the gearing eg g/box ratio x final drive ratio x rolling diameter etc. Therefore in theory 1st gear will see a greater gain from a light flywheel than 5th gear will. Similarly a lightweight carbon drive shaft will be like lightening the car multiplied by the final drive ratio as its in between the g/box and diff so the reduction is more constant.

If you were to dyno an engine at a fixed rpm before and after a flywheel change the power would read the same. A dyno that accelerates through the RPM range will show a gain depending on the gear you dyno it in. People seem to dyno these cars in 4th gear for some reason where traditionally people use whichever gear is 1:1 which is 5th on these.

(sorry that turned into bit of a novel, still not sure i explained myself well)

Nope u did a good job and get wat u mean now.

[Visconti]

Originally Posted by subatoy

ok so I'm a turbo guy but I wanted to see how much power you could achieve if you used the money from a turbo kit to buy NA mods.

so far AVO will cost around $3,800 (cheapest kit around) plus ECUTEK stuff u need to tune the car would cost another $800 which makes $4,600.
This kit should easily give 250whp-300whp (numbers based on existing kits running 4-8psi) I know theres installation costs but lets keep it easy so lets just talk about parts.

Lets say we had $4,600 what mods would net the most power without using Forced Induction. I'm talking Engine mods only to make it comparable to a turbo kit.

from the research I've done I can list:

-Intake system including silicon pipes
-Headers (I hate the way they sound)
-full exhaust system
-Light weight pulleys
-light weight flywheel
-Ecutek tuning
-E85 tune

please feel free to add more and the cost of the parts cuz I'm unsure.

I dont know how AVO is going to do the tuning or cables so i can't speak on that

BUT you should add a Crawford AOS to your list!!

John

[jkonquer]

There are so much you can do in NA, however going forced induction is THE cheapest way to gain power.
For NA you can look into cams, port and polished heads, forged pistons and rods, valves. Intake manifolds. These should give you at least 50 more hp, but it will cost over 10k.

[mike2100]

Originally Posted by jkonquer

For NA you can look into cams, port and polished heads, forged pistons and rods, valves. Intake manifolds.

Mmm, can't wait to see shops start doing this. Can't wait too long that is, or I'll have to find a reputable shop and make a proposition.

[GingerExtract]

If you want to stay NA, swap it to an LSX. That is the only way this car in naturally aspirated format will match turbo power. I never understand people who want to blow tons of money to stay NA, pay more than it would cost to boost it, and then make less power.

[mike2100]

Originally Posted by GingerExtract

If you want to stay NA, swap it to an LSX. That is the only way this car in naturally aspirated format will match turbo power. I never understand people who want to blow tons of money to stay NA, pay more than it would cost to boost it, and then make less power.

blah blah blah
It's not all about comparing the size of your POWAH to someone else's. The why, the purpose has been established. It's for throttle response for performing delicate weight transfer while cutting apexes. Not for comparing time slips and doing huge burnouts.
Hey if that's your thing, no worries (HPDE is not everyone's thang either). You may return to your regularly scheduled forced induction thread. But no poo-pooing in an N/A thread. We know we're not going to make 500 hp and we're fine with that!

[wlfpck]

Originally Posted by brichard0625

Im not too sure but if im not mistaken lightweight pulleys do add power to a dyno. Not to sure if its true hp or it just tricks the dyno..when i had my tc2 NST released a pulley and had dyno results from their pulley..it didnt put down alot of power but it did increase power throughout the power band..took a look at their blog http://nonstoptuning.wordpress.com/2...2011-scion-tc/

By the way on the 22nd im doing a before and after dyno with the perrin pulley so lets see if we actually gain anything on the dyno.

You WILL show gains when the dyno is an interia based dyno. Your engine which makes say.... 200 hp at the CRANKSHAFT, will STILL make 200 HP at the crankshaft. In other words if you pull the engine and hook it up directly to a dyno without going through the pulley and such, your engine will still make 200 hp.

You get a gain because you reduce the amount of rotating mass which is why it shows up on inertia based dynos. You will also see the side effects of faster revs. Other than that, that is it. You can achieve these same results with a lightened flywheel and lighter wheels.

Though for the purposes of getting the most amount of decrease in rotational mass, I would go with the flywheel. Then you bypass the possible problems that come with a undampened crank pulley.

[GingerExtract]

Originally Posted by mike2100

blah blah blah
It's not all about comparing the size of your POWAH to someone else's. The why, the purpose has been established. It's for throttle response for performing delicate weight transfer while cutting apexes. Not for comparing time slips and doing huge burnouts.
Hey if that's your thing, no worries (HPDE is not everyone's thang either). You may return to your regularly scheduled forced induction thread. But no poo-pooing in an N/A thread. We know we're not going to make 500 hp and we're fine with that!

Mike, you might want to consider glasses. Both my avatar and my signature have cars prepped for AutoX and track days (Take a guess who was driving them). Also, the term "throttle response" is such nonsense that has been propagated by people who are trying to describe torque delivery. Adding a turbo to a car would not change "throttle response" in the slightest, you press the accelerator, and the TB opens up, a turbo does not change that. A turbo may cause a slight decrease in initial thrust as exhaust gases have to be recycled to spin the turbo but modern turbo technology makes "lag" really a thing of the past as long as the turbo is well-matched to the motor.
I'm just saying, why waste $1000's of dollar building the motor only to make as much (at best) as a low boost OTS turbo kit.
I could write a book about this but I will stop because I can already tell that you and many others will be foaming at the mouth to tell me that "throttle response" is the most important thing and "NA power is the best power!"

[GenkiElite]

Dry sump is always nice.

[armythug]

Originally Posted by GingerExtract

Mike, you might want to consider glasses. Both my avatar and my signature have cars prepped for AutoX and track days (Take a guess who was driving them). Also, the term "throttle response" is such nonsense that has been propagated by people who are trying to describe torque delivery. Adding a turbo to a car would not change "throttle response" in the slightest, you press the accelerator, and the TB opens up, a turbo does not change that. A turbo may cause a slight decrease in initial thrust as exhaust gases have to be recycled to spin the turbo but modern turbo technology makes "lag" really a thing of the past as long as the turbo is well-matched to the motor.
I'm just saying, why waste $1000's of dollar building the motor only to make as much (at best) as a low boost OTS turbo kit.
I could write a book about this but I will stop because I can already tell that you and many others will be foaming at the mouth to tell me that "throttle response" is the most important thing and "NA power is the best power!"

I get what you are saying about "why waste thousands building a motor". For me personally, it's how soon will I hit the speed limit on my way to work and back. I will also have the option of going to the track on the weekends to let it all hang out. But there is a fascination with keeping it simple and not including the extra parts required for forced induction. Some of us simply want this car to be a high revving screamer that is fun to drive without having to worry about the reliability/unreliability of forced induction. Dude maybe you should go watch some Hot Version N/A honda engine battles. I kid. I drive a WRX so I love my forced induction. But for this car and considering what I'm going to be doing with my car(whenever it arrives), I wouldn't mind building up the engine N/A. I'm not saying that FI for this car is wrong. This is just my personal preference considering I have no huge reasons to justify "FI powah" in my DD.


And on a side note. I got a buddy that likes to talk about his FI setup in his Silvia. Guess how fast he goes every day?............ The speed limit.

[ngabdala]

+1. Waiting on mine.

Originally Posted by Visconti

I dont know how AVO is going to do the tuning or cables so i can't speak on that

BUT you should add a Crawford AOS to your list!!

John

[brichard0625]

Originally Posted by armythug

This is just my personal preference considering I have no huge reasons to justify "FI powah" in my DD.


And on a side note. I got a buddy that likes to talk about his FI setup in his Silvia. Guess how fast he goes every day?............ The speed limit.

I have to agree...i wont lie i would love to go force induction but i really dont have a valid reason on why i would spend 5000+ on a turbo kit that im probably never going to take full advantage of. When it comes to mods i think the most im going to spend is 3000-3500. All i need is a few more horses. Only cars im going to encounter are the typical ricers and i just want to be faster than theirs.
My setup is going to be Intake, exhaust with highflow cats and overpipe, headers,pulley,tune,better tires. The rest is going to be cosmetics for my car. Im looking for 215+hp/160+tq on a dyno n im happy