NA engine mods for turbo money?

[subatoy]

ok so I'm a turbo guy but I wanted to see how much power you could achieve if you used the money from a turbo kit to buy NA mods.

so far AVO will cost around $3,800 (cheapest kit around) plus ECUTEK stuff u need to tune the car would cost another $800 which makes $4,600.
This kit should easily give 250whp-300whp (numbers based on existing kits running 4-8psi) I know theres installation costs but lets keep it easy so lets just talk about parts.

Lets say we had $4,600 what mods would net the most power without using Forced Induction. I'm talking Engine mods only to make it comparable to a turbo kit.

from the research I've done I can list:

-Intake system including silicon pipes
-Headers (I hate the way they sound)
-full exhaust system
-Light weight pulleys
-light weight flywheel
-Ecutek tuning
-E85 tune

please feel free to add more and the cost of the parts cuz I'm unsure.

[JoeBoxer]

E85 tune I would add seperately from base tune

[drifter]

For me it's not only about the money, but the ability to make power with mods that are reliable, (won't damage the engine) retain warranty, and be within the legal CA limits

[Turdinator]

Originally Posted by subatoy

ok so I'm a turbo guy but I wanted to see how much power you could achieve if you used the money from a turbo kit to buy NA mods.

so far AVO will cost around $3,800 (cheapest kit around) plus ECUTEK stuff u need to tune the car would cost another $800 which makes $4,600.
This kit should easily give 250whp-300whp (numbers based on existing kits running 4-8psi) I know theres installation costs but lets keep it easy so lets just talk about parts.

Lets say we had $4,600 what mods would net the most power without using Forced Induction. I'm talking Engine mods only to make it comparable to a turbo kit.

from the research I've done I can list:

-Intake system including silicon pipes
-Headers (I hate the way they sound)
-full exhaust system
-Light weight pulleys
-light weight flywheel
-Ecutek tuning
-E85 tune

please feel free to add more and the cost of the parts cuz I'm unsure.

Lightweight rotating components don't add power. They effectively reduce how much weight the engine is having to accelerate. So you'll reduce your 1/4ml not increase your HP on a dyno.

I'd say with the money you're talking 200whp should be achievable.

[Grishbok]

600$ nitrous injection. Enjoy turbo power when you want it.

[serialk11r]

Those might hit 200, but has anyone actually released a new intake header yet? The problem with this engine is that to shorten runners (to move powerband up) you would lose some of the acoustic effects that happen between cylinders, as the cylinders that fire one after another are on opposite banks. A new header that gives more grunt at 7k could help a bit. The part of the intake before the header is not going to affect performance nearly as much.

But then there is the issue of the cams, and I think the cam specs are actually pretty conservative on this motor. Those will have to go if you want to push beyond 200 ish.

[Turdinator]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Those might hit 200, but has anyone actually released a new intake header yet? The problem with this engine is that to shorten runners (to move powerband up) you would lose some of the acoustic effects that happen between cylinders, as the cylinders that fire one after another are on opposite banks. A new header that gives more grunt at 7k could help a bit. The part of the intake before the header is not going to affect performance nearly as much.

But then there is the issue of the cams, and I think the cam specs are actually pretty conservative on this motor. Those will have to go if you want to push beyond 200 ish.

I thought Nameless had suggested they needed to lengthen the runners to make more power which they couldn't do without removing the first cat.

The cams aren't too bad for a stock single duration setup. I think they were about 252*

[Blue86]

how much is an LS conversion? :-)

[brichard0625]

Originally Posted by Turdinator

Lightweight rotating components don't add power. They effectively reduce how much weight the engine is having to accelerate. So you'll reduce your 1/4ml not increase your HP on a dyno.

I'd say with the money you're talking 200whp should be achievable.

Im not too sure but if im not mistaken lightweight pulleys do add power to a dyno. Not to sure if its true hp or it just tricks the dyno..when i had my tc2 NST released a pulley and had dyno results from their pulley..it didnt put down alot of power but it did increase power throughout the power band..took a look at their blog http://nonstoptuning.wordpress.com/2...2011-scion-tc/

By the way on the 22nd im doing a before and after dyno with the perrin pulley so lets see if we actually gain anything on the dyno.

[Turdinator]

Originally Posted by brichard0625

Im not too sure but if im not mistaken lightweight pulleys do add power to a dyno. Not to sure if its true hp or it just tricks the dyno..when i had my tc2 NST released a pulley and had dyno results from their pulley..it didnt put down alot of power but it did increase power throughout the power band..took a look at their blog http://nonstoptuning.wordpress.com/2...2011-scion-tc/

By the way on the 22nd im doing a before and after dyno with the perrin pulley so lets see if we actually gain anything on the dyno.

There is discussion on this in other threads. But basically on a dyno that gives a reading whilst accelerating an engine will show a gain. But the effect will differ depending on what gear you are in. Redusing the rotating mass is like reducing the cars weight but multiplied by the gearing eg g/box ratio x final drive ratio x rolling diameter etc. Therefore in theory 1st gear will see a greater gain from a light flywheel than 5th gear will. Similarly a lightweight carbon drive shaft will be like lightening the car multiplied by the final drive ratio as its in between the g/box and diff so the reduction is more constant.

If you were to dyno an engine at a fixed rpm before and after a flywheel change the power would read the same. A dyno that accelerates through the RPM range will show a gain depending on the gear you dyno it in. People seem to dyno these cars in 4th gear for some reason where traditionally people use whichever gear is 1:1 which is 5th on these.

(sorry that turned into bit of a novel, still not sure i explained myself well)

[subatoy]

I don't think too many mods that give power would retain warranty, I've always seen modding for people who are willing to lose their powertrain warranty, which is my case.

I owned an 06 WRX (selling that car was the biggest mistake)
and I drove that car on Stage 2 for 4 years FLAWLESSLY! never a single problem and I can say that It wasn't driven like a baby so I trust that these Subaru cars are tough!

It seems like Turbo for the money is the way to go for my goals, I understand why a turbo doesn't make much sense for those looking for throttle response and serious racing but I've never taken a car to ANY sort of track I just enjoy them.

I know pulleys or lightweight components aren't about power but they are still about enhancing performance through the engine so thats why I added them.

[Mr.Jay]

I think the only reason you would want to stay with NA mods for making power is if you want to have amazing response at the cost of less in the numbers or make big numbers but add lag

port? head work? I dunno anything about boxers though so I'm not even sure of how much it would do

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Turdinator

I thought Nameless had suggested they needed to lengthen the runners to make more power which they couldn't do without removing the first cat.

The cams aren't too bad for a stock single duration setup. I think they were about 252*

I was talking about the intake header. I have a strong suspicion that the intake headers are detuning the top, giving a "broader" powerband.

The cams aren't too bad, but longer cams could allow some more high rpm overlap and slightly improved VE. The VVT "charts" that Toyota gave show there's something like 8? (I forgot what it was exactly) degrees that the cam opening point can be retarded past TDC. So add 8 degrees before the stock cam (to maintain a good idle and low load characteristics), maybe like 16 after the stock cam closes, then that will allow 8 degrees overlap with the intake valves closing 8 degrees after they used to, that should give a bit of a boost up top. You could add more and create some overlap at all times, but the more you do that obviously the worse the low load and low speed characteristics will be.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I was talking about the intake header. I have a strong suspicion that the intake headers are detuning the top, giving a "broader" powerband.

The cams aren't too bad, but longer cams could allow some more high rpm overlap and slightly improved VE. The VVT "charts" that Toyota gave show there's something like 8? (I forgot what it was exactly) degrees that the cam opening point can be retarded past TDC. So add 8 degrees before the stock cam (to maintain a good idle and low load characteristics), maybe like 16 after the stock cam closes, then that will allow 8 degrees overlap with the intake valves closing 8 degrees after they used to, that should give a bit of a boost up top. You could add more and create some overlap at all times, but the more you do that obviously the worse the low load and low speed characteristics will be.

Manifold. Avoids confusion.

Also still no cam news from manufacturers?