Increased front negative camber now oversteering what next

[churchx]

Harey: if in mm, it should be fine, if in degrees, that's 5-10x times too much, as excessive toe eats tires a lot (it's like pre-steered/pre-turned wheels to centerline (toe-in) or to outside (toe-out), that drag/slip constantly even when going in straight line, so excessive toe setting has bigger illeffects then eg. excessive camber), makes handling more log like numb. Most prefer on these cars zero toe front and 0.1-0.2degrees total toe-in in rear (actually stock toe settings are same, but too broad of still passing as ok range).

As for handling oversteer .. first think of grip management. One has specific limited amount of grip of tires that can be spent of something (braking|turning|accelerating). Asking too much in total - slip. Thus as you turn more into corner, in proportion ease on brakes. Only when going out of corner, the more you return to center steering, only in proportion gradually press throttle. If overdone throttle and rear slips, ease throttle, and do quick countersteer (the sooner/quicker you do, the less countersteer needed) to restore grip as at some points of last video in post above (eg. at 00:41+, 00:58+, 01:10+, 01:25+). Next time in that corner try lesser throttle or if when going out, open it later/slower. Repeat-repeat-repeat to get into reflexes. That's the wonderful thing of track that in controlled environment with lessened risks and unknowns and repeated many times of same known turns you can experiment to near limits, learn control, learn needed reflexes. If spun out, remember speed, what/how you did, approach less violently next time, avoid too quick driving inputs (steering/braking/throttle) to not upset balance (except quickness of countersteer, if you lost grip). Learn brake heavy but just before abs engages. Learn rev match/blipping throttle to not loose traction when downshifting. Lot of things to learn while having fun . Also good that you haven't already gone to very grippy tires. Less grip, easier to loose grip while at lesser speeds, thus easier to learn limits / more time to react / less costly mistakes.

[Racecomp Engineering]

You could use more rear camber. But try a tire temp prove at your next event.

- Andrew

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Harey

It happens on the street without any throttle but normally on a less than ideal surface sometimes with bumps. With less front end grip I couldnt take the corner as fast so the rear wasnt under the same stress.

I think the question is "Now I have more front end grip, how do I increase rear grip to match"

If you're completely off the throttle, you've transferred weight to the front tires. Mid corner you want to be neutral throttle so the car isn't accelerating or decelerating, that stops weight from transferring either way until you want it to.

As for the balance, you've taken a car that was understeer biased to be more neutral, and it sounds like you're potentially over doing the steering input for the situation. You can revert the balance towards understeer, but you'll likely be doing so by reducing front grip, not increasing rear.

[Harey]

Originally Posted by wparsons

If you're completely off the throttle, you've transferred weight to the front tires. Mid corner you want to be neutral throttle so the car isn't accelerating or decelerating, that stops weight from transferring either way until you want it to.

Mind blown!!!

Looks like as many people have said driver improvement is the number 1 thing I need to work on!

If I do buy something it will be the MCA traction mod but i know that it wont fix poor driving. Will also measure the tyre temp to see how the rear camber is going, thanks RCE.

[bhmax]

I’d try the cheap and easy stuff first. As mentioned earlier, lower rear tire pressure and remove rear sway bar. Easy to try out and see if you like it. Both have helped me and my driving style, depending which springs I’ve had installed.

[guybo]

Originally Posted by Harey

Hi All,

I still have all oem suspension except for some camber bolts and increased front camber.

My wheel alignment settings are:
Front Camber -2
Front Toe +0.5
Caster 6 degrees 12 minutes
SAI 17 degrees 18 minutes

Rear Camber -1.3
Rear Toe +1.0

I am running Bridgestone Potenza RE003 tyres (215/45/17) on 33psi.

The turn in is fantastic but the rear struggles to keep up. With my driving style I found it slightly oversteered before I increased front camber and now it oversteers quite a bit. I find the traction/stability control kicking in quite a lot (when driving pretty quick around tight turns).

I tried increasing the front tyre pressure to 36-38psi and while it did stop oversteering, I lost all my beautiful turn in. I have since gone back to 33psi all round and just manage the rear with my driving.

What would be the next thing to balance the car but also make it faster? I track the car 3-4 times a year. Increase rear camber, front sway bar?

There's 3 phases of the corner. Turn-in, apex and track out. You can oversteer or understeer at any point in the turn and can go from one to the other. Different things you are doing or settings on the car can affect this. Your settings look good to me and are similar to my own. Is this issue while at the limit, on the street just messing around, cold tires or hot tires? The OP really doesn't say near enough about the issue, only turn-in but not the conditions.

So if you've described turn-in oversteer and at the limit with hot tires, that would indicate to me you have a brake balance issue. Full braking, hot sticky tires and rear end wants to kick out, the brakes may have an issue and are too rear-biased. If you're not at the limit, your rear dampers in rebound may need adjustment, or the fronts may need adjustment in bounce. If you are on the stock susupension, you should get them checked because they may be blown out. If your tires are not hot and you're on the street not at the limit, your right foot is the problem, learn how to feather the throttle more, esp. if you've modified the engine for more power.

I get turn-in oversteer just because I mash the gas and have fun with it. I'm on E85 and the little extra power lets me play. If I feather the throttle some more I can restore the balance and it's perfect.

[TommyW]

You gain more traction with the fronts now. You need to alter your driving style to compensate otherwise you'll need to change sway bars.

[ZionsWrath]

Wellbof you improve front end grip and dont improve rear grip it might seem you are oversteering more but probably you are cornering faster, just my bro science input

[strat61caster]

Now that we know rear toe is in mm I think you can put more in. 3mm total toe in is about an 1/8" or 0.3 degrees total and is a reasonable number imho.

It seems that cars that run a stiffer rear spring (after accounting for motion ratio) need more rear toe in than the cars that run a softer rear spring (i.e. coilovers with 6k/6k springs f/r). OE suspension falls into the former category.

[churchx]

strat61caster: or guys running stiffer suspension often also have grippier tires and corner faster .. maybe need for more toe might come from that too. Hard to tell what related to what, when several variables are changed

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by churchx

strat61caster: or guys running stiffer suspension often also have grippier tires and corner faster .. maybe need for more toe might come from that too. Hard to tell what related to what, when several variables are changed

Depends on how you prefer the car to feel. I like zero toe in.

I think the OP has already mentioned the cause of the issue.

Originally Posted by Harey View Post
I thought if you are accelerating mid corner then your corner entry speed was too slow?

Sounds like it is just a little lift off over steer at mid corner out to me. Some maintenance throttle will help settle the car.

[gpvecchi]

Originally Posted by Harey

Hi All,

I still have all oem suspension except for some camber bolts and increased front camber.

Sorry, which camber bolts to achieve 2 degrees?

[churchx]

NoHaveMSG: then specify zero toe - where. For example i also prefer zero toe front. But in this case IIRC it's about some rear toe-in. For me it allowed more stability / opening throttle sooner when exiting out of curve and more stability under throttle on low grip, eg. ice/snow in winter & on in rain.
govecchi: on stock height single set of camberbolts is usually worth ~ -1.5 camber. Both bolts replaced with camberbolt ~ -2.3. If lowered, ~ -2.5. For even more other/extra means are needed, such as camberplates/strut hole slotting/powerflex bushings PFF69-801G and alikes. Most commonly used front camberbolts are SPC 81305 for lower hole, Whiteline KCA416 for upper.

[NoHaveMSG]

@churchx

I run zero front and rear. Just my preference. I ran a touch of toe in the rear on my earlier alignment. My last alignment I just gave them the camber specs I wanted and they zero'd the toe on both ends(ops). I liked it so I am going to keep running with it.