Bilstein b6 + Stock springs

[OND]

Originally Posted by Gforce

Maybe I do have a lot of driving experience.

You have zero experience driving a BRZ on track.

Originally Posted by Gforce

Maybe I also know a lot about suspension and car handling.

You have a total misuderstanding of even very basic concepts when it comes to vehicle dynamics, as seen in my previous compilation of your obnoxious statements.

Originally Posted by Gforce

I do know that I have improved the way my BRZ drives by applying my experience, knowledge and intellect to the problem presented by Subaru deciding to build a fantastic little car but almost ruin it, I think by catering to juveniles who lack the understanding to appreciate a good car.

You don't have any numbers or data to think that you have improved the way your BRZ drives, except the receipts of the parts that you bought. If you think zero front camber, 20mm front sway and MCA rear bracket on an otherwise stock suspension gives a "good driving experience", you probably can't tell the difference between "loads of understeer" and "good driving experience" either.

Originally Posted by Gforce

Oddly enough, I modified my Subaru to be almost exactly the same as the current new 2017 version of the Subaru BRZ. I did almost all of that before the factory decided to do basically the same things I did.

If you think the 2017 BRZ drives anything like your car (which has 20mm front sways, zero front camber, 14mm rear sways and MCA suspension bracket, according to what you say), you again don't have a clue about the new BRZ.


As a mechanical engineer who has been reading and learning from knowledgeable people on this forum for years (been reading the forum way before I joined), it is really easy for me to spot an armchair engineer like you giving out bad advice. However, for the sake of beginners who might use this thread as reference, please stop trying to push your uneducated opinions as facts.

Multiple people have been calling you out on multiple threads and you keep saying there is an issue with the community. You should start thinking that maybe the issue is not everybody else, but you.

[ApexEight]

@Icecreamtruk What about rear camber? And for a mixed use car that is first and foremost and a daily driver, would moderate (-2 degrees up front) be ok?

[OND]

Originally Posted by ApexEight

@Icecreamtruk What about rear camber? And for a mixed use car that is first and foremost and a daily driver, would moderate (-2 degrees up front) be ok?

I am at -2.3 front camber with the camber bolt method you mentioned earlier and still see more wear on the outer shoulders of the tires, but I have a short commute, so depending on the commute/autoX mileage ratio, you will probably be fine as long as you have zero toe. Stock camber shows good wear at the rear for me and I dont have any oversteer issues, so I didnt touch that.

For reference, I'm on stock suspension with Firestone Firehawk Indy 500's which are better than stock but a tier below PSS.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by OND

I am at -2.3 front camber with the camber bolt method you mentioned earlier and still see more wear on the outer shoulders of the tires, but I have a short commute, so depending on the commute/autoX mileage ratio, you will probably be fine as long as you have zero toe. Stock camber shows good wear at the rear for me and I dont have any oversteer issues, so I didnt touch that.



For reference, I'm on stock suspension with Firestone Firehawk Indy 500's which are better than stock but a tier below PSS.

That's a nice tire for casual auto crossing. It doesn't have a ton of grip, but very predictable.


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[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by ApexEight

@Icecreamtruk What about rear camber? And for a mixed use car that is first and foremost and a daily driver, would moderate (-2 degrees up front) be ok?

My guesstimate as a double duty car would be around -2.5 front, -2.1 rear with tires in the 200TW. There is a way to reduce roll, and thus camber loss during body roll of an otherwise stock car, that is sway bars. But I would do both, not just front, and making sure they are adjustable, otherwise you might get stuck with a setup that does not work (loads of understeer or loads of oversteer). I dont like playing with swaybars much, so I'd rather adjust camber, spring rates, and dampers. I dont like playing with toe much (tires are expensive!!!).

Beware, this is a guess nonetheless. I went from OEM camber to -3, to -3.2 and -3.6 now. -3 and -3.2 were both still insufficient (front). Rear I went from stock (somethine like -1 and -1.6, my car was wonky on the rear with camber) to -3.2 as I wanted to purposely go over and dial it back rather than small increments like front. -3.2 rear is too much, I think -2.6 to -2.9 is where's gonna be at.

[JMon85]

So.. add camber??

So.. bushings and shocks good??

So.. Everything else = bad??

Hey engineer ~ have anything constructive to add? We could all benefit from your expertise!

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

My guesstimate as a double duty car would be around -2.5 front, -2.1 rear with tires in the 200TW. There is a way to reduce roll, and thus camber loss during body roll of an otherwise stock car, that is sway bars. But I would do both, not just front, and making sure they are adjustable, otherwise you might get stuck with a setup that does not work (loads of understeer or loads of oversteer). I dont like playing with swaybars much, so I'd rather adjust camber, spring rates, and dampers. I dont like playing with toe much (tires are expensive!!!).

Beware, this is a guess nonetheless. I went from OEM camber to -3, to -3.2 and -3.6 now. -3 and -3.2 were both still insufficient (front). Rear I went from stock (somethine like -1 and -1.6, my car was wonky on the rear with camber) to -3.2 as I wanted to purposely go over and dial it back rather than small increments like front. -3.2 rear is too much, I think -2.6 to -2.9 is where's gonna be at.

Excellent observations! Just curious, do you find the added camber at the back (past 2 degrees negative) have ramifications post apex (basically putting the power down). Granted these cars do not have the propensity to overwhelm the rear with on throttle but am curious especially since I am coming from high hp cars where past 2 degree mark you compensate for putting the rubber to the ground.

Am setting this car up for NASA TTE (for this year) so all of this is really hepful.

TIA

Lutfy

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by JMon85

So.. add camber?? Lol

So.. bushings and shocks good??

Everything else = bad?

Seriously wtf lmao

Correct. The weakest link on this car (on the track) is camber. The front really struggles for grip. With Azeni+ (newer compound in stock size) I couldnt overwhelm the rear even if I tried. I have stock shocks and find them to be more than adequate for for track duty with the spring rates I am running. Car came with TRD springs.

Stock everything else. In my class I can only do tires (stock size), brake pads, springs and swaybars (TRD coming soon). With a tad more camber (aiming for -2.5 front) I believe this thing will be perfectly balanced. If I do the shocks (next year when the new rules come out), I'll go with MCS double adjustables.

For street driving (if it were my daily) I'd leave it as is but even for track, it does not require much work as its so competent.

I will have to upload my video from Watkins Glen where the car was giving E36 M3s a run for their money. Icecreamtruk is spot on.

Lutfy

[OND]

Originally Posted by JMon85

So.. add camber?? Lol

So.. bushings and shocks good??

Everything else = bad?

Seriously wtf lmao

This would be the order I'd follow if I were looking for best grip under $1k:

- 2 sets of camber bolts for the front ($50)
- Performance alignment ($150)
- Good tires (you got this covered I think)
- RCE yellow springs ($300) --> mild drop, stiffer in the front, so should help with your rear stability worries

If you have some more money:
- Bilstein B6 or Koni Yellows
- Front adjustable top hats
- Rear camber adjustment parts

To further dial in the suspension to your liking:
- Front and rear adjustable sways

Unfortunately in real life I don't have to worry about any of this, since track fees, tires, brake pads, fluid changes etc is giving me enough expenses.

[JMon85]

What about folks who don't auto X and aren't limited by a class. Are there any other methods stiffening things up in the chassis? After fitting new tires something feels off. (Hopefully the bushing kits can solve this among others). Surely I can't be the only one who feels a little slop in the chassis.

Again, I'm not interested in lowering my car. Ride height doesn't bother me & I like the convenience. This is possible right? Or are my goals just plain unrealistic lol..

[JMon85]

Originally Posted by OND

This would be the order I'd follow if I were looking for best grip under $1k:

- 2 sets of camber bolts for the front ($50)
- Performance alignment ($150)
- Good tires (you got this covered I think)
- RCE yellow springs ($300) --> mild drop, stiffer in the front, so should help with your rear stability worries

If you have some more money:
- Bilstein B6 or Koni Yellows
- Front adjustable top hats
- Rear camber adjustment parts

To further dial in the suspension to your liking:
- Front and rear adjustable sways

Unfortunately in real life I don't have to worry about any of this, since track fees, tires, brake pads, fluid changes etc is giving me enough expenses.

Cool thanks!

Snows heavily here.. lowering is definitely out of the question..

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by JMon85

What about folks who don't auto X and aren't limited by a class. Are there any other methods stiffening things up in the chassis? After fitting new tires something feels off. (Hopefully the bushing kits can solve this among others). Surely I can't be the only one who feels a little slop in the chassis.

Again, I'm not interested in lowering my car. Ride height doesn't bother me & I like the convenience. This is possible right? Or are my goals just plain unrealistic lol..

My take: you have a gorgeously balanced car. If you're not tracking or autox ing to be competitive, I'd leave it stock. Any mods you do comes with a setback.

The mod bug will itch but fight the temptation. Remember this is a production car which can be tracked not a track car which can be street driven.

If the shocks leak, get new ones under warranty (what I did). If you're out of warranty and shocks blow, like others have said Bilsteins are a great solution.

I can tell you one thing with certainty that you'll never be limited by the car's performance on the street.

We're truly blessed to enjoy these machines

Lutfy


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[Gforce]

Originally Posted by JMon85

Cool thanks!

Snows heavily here.. lowering is definitely out of the question..

You also do not want to be running aggressive camber or reducing understeer.

This car is very tricky to drive on low grip surfaces, very tricky.

The mechanical engineer from Texass is just blowing smoke. If you shout loudly enough or offensively enough that makes you right, I guess, in Texas.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by OND

This would be the order I'd follow if I were looking for best grip under $1k:

- 2 sets of camber bolts for the front ($50)
- Performance alignment ($150)
- Good tires (you got this covered I think)
- RCE yellow springs ($300) --> mild drop, stiffer in the front, so should help with your rear stability worries

If you have some more money:
- Bilstein B6 or Koni Yellows
- Front adjustable top hats
- Rear camber adjustment parts

To further dial in the suspension to your liking:
- Front and rear adjustable sways

Unfortunately in real life I don't have to worry about any of this, since track fees, tires, brake pads, fluid changes etc is giving me enough expenses.

Setting yourself up for a visit to a guard rail near you in winter conditions.