Bilstein b6 + Stock springs

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Gforce

I'm not sure I said either of these things.

Yes you did, right here:

Originally Posted by Gforce

Steady state chassis behaviour isn't very important when cornering.

It only works if camber is incorrect to begin with.

Plus all cars built for road use understeer at maximum lateral g achievable in steady state. They have to to be safe to drive.

The point of this thread is improving the stock suspension setup, reducing understeer at maximum lateral g should be the top priority then, as you must agree with given your closing statement.



Hop on track and see how your tires act and tell me that the Mcpherson strut gains enough camber. Saying that it gains more than a properly designed multilink is totally untrue, I've measured it on this car, at best you get a few tenths of a degree up front and the rear gains over half a degree through it's travel from static to full compression.

[Gforce]

Not very important just isn't equivalent to irrelevant.

Stock camber is correct for stock suspension. In any event it cannot be changed.

The Subaru engineers were aware that strut suspension can be made adjustable by using crash bolts. Subaru dealers sell and install these on front and rear suspensions of all Subaru models if factory set camber needs to be corrected.

The camber gain of McPherson struts is a well understood phenomenon. Given a tall enough space the strut can be designed to match an upper wishbone, practically speaking. Or, as in both the Lotus Elite of the early 60's or the Porsche Boxster/Cayman struts can be used at both ends successfully. There are many other "all strut" suspensions that produce good handling for road use.

This thread was originally about using B6 with stock springs. They work great. I suspect the 2017 BRZ with Sachs dampers is pretty much using the same damper tune as the B6. Sachs and Bilstein are direct competitors and produce equivalent products.

I do not think this chassis benefits from reducing understeer. On the contrary, it benefits from moving roll resistance to the front axle. Increasing the front roll bar diameter from 18 mm to 20 mm is just about the single best mod you can do to the spring rates of pre 2017 BRZ. I doubt you can improve on the stock 2017 from what I've read.

[OND]

Originally Posted by Gforce

Steady state chassis behaviour isn't very important when cornering.

That's how the stiffer front bar delivers more front axle grip.

[Camber adjustment] only works if camber is incorrect to begin with.

[Roll bars] work by, in effect, lowering the car.

McPherson struts produce more camber change than mulitlink, generally speaking.

The grip limitations for this Impreza based suspension are all at the rear axle.

The reason steady state cornering isn't relevant is there are no steady state corners.

Stock camber is correct for stock suspension.

Given a tall enough space the strut can be designed to match an upper wishbone, practically speaking.

The gibberish in this thread reminds me of this for some reason:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BNjJutK_4A"]It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia - Flowers for Charlie - The Placebo Effect - YouTube[/ame]

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Gforce

Stock camber is correct for stock suspension. In any event it cannot be changed.

I do not think this chassis benefits from reducing understeer.

I look forward to hearing about your first track day on stock suspension and alignment. Put up a good time, drive the car at >9/10ths and lets see how those front tires hold up. Hell even a skidpad, sorry I mean parking lot, but I suppose that's too far beneath you.

[Gforce]

No tracks around here.

The community on this board is a bit odd. Possibly too young.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by OND

The gibberish in this thread reminds me of this for some reason:

No surprises then

[JMon85]

What happened.. lol

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by JMon85

What happened.. lol

This happens quite a lot.

The answer to your initial question is that Bilstein B6 are a just about perfect first upgrade to stock dampers.

I did exactly that. I fit Michelin Pilot A/S 3 tires in 225/45x17 on OZ alloys.

The next upgrade should be bushing inserts and a transmission mount insert. Whiteline from Australia makes really good ones.


A stiffer front anti roll bar is a great upgrade from there, 20 mm from Whiteline is what I chose to do.

Then really save up and fit a Supercharger. Edelbrock is just great.

Subaru itself changed out the pretty crappy stock Japanese shock and fit Sachs high pressure dampers for 2017. Sachs and Bilstein are basically equivalent.

[JMon85]

Yup I went with the Whiteline front/rear Essential bushing kits to include the rear subframe inserts for a new base line, thanks for all feedback! Should make it feel more solid/planted while i put in more hours of seat time. I'll run the factory shocks until they're on their last days then replace with the B6s and go from there.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Gforce

No tracks around here.

The community on this board is a bit odd. Possibly too young.

Then why are you so adamant you are correct when you have no experience?

All your posts about improving the handling of an 86 is the very definition of armchair quarterbacking. Don't get me wrong, I'm not some infallible paragon of car setup, I'm pretty mediocre at it. But I've been tracking and autocrossing this car for 3 year now and you're dead wrong on some of your hypothesis.

Edit: sorry, I've been a big ol bag of ****s this week, I need to take a break.

[JMon85]

Did my comment, "dial out some oversteer" startle the hornet's nest?

I think I've gathered the best cost effective ways to augment the cars limits w/o lowering that'll work for me & hopefully others can take from this topic as well. In the end we all have different driving styles & ultimately have to science this shit with trial and error.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Then why are you so adamant you are correct when you have no experience?

All your posts about improving the handling of an 86 is the very definition of armchair quarterbacking. Don't get me wrong, I'm not some infallible paragon of car setup, I'm pretty mediocre at it. But I've been tracking and autocrossing this car for 3 year now and you're dead wrong on some of your hypothesis.

Edit: sorry, I've been a big ol bag of ****s this week, I need to take a break.

I don't know. Maybe I do have a lot of driving experience. Maybe I also know a lot about suspension and car handling. I do know that I have improved the way my BRZ drives by applying my experience, knowledge and intellect to the problem presented by Subaru deciding to build a fantastic little car but almost ruin it, I think by catering to juveniles who lack the understanding to appreciate a good car.

Oddly enough, I modified my Subaru to be almost exactly the same as the current new 2017 version of the Subaru BRZ. I did almost all of that before the factory decided to do basically the same things I did.

The only things I couldn't do until this year were to find softer rate rear springs, because of course there's no market for those among youngsters who think harder springs always make a car handle better, and those nifty MCA traction brackets which frankly need to be under every BRZ to correct the one significant defect in the chassis still evident in the factory versions. The factory anti squat leverage is too high to be optimal. That's obviously because the chassis upon which the BRZ is based is a fwd/awd Impreza sedan. The longer travel and softer springs in the Impreza attached to the same basic chassis need anti squat for comfort. The BRZ does not since the springs are shorter and higher rate, originally much too high.

So if you prefer a BRZ that is only really usable on the track by all means ignore my advice. If you want a better handling road car that is fun to drive year round regardless of weather build yourself a 2017 suspension. Add MCA traction brackets and see how you like it.

[venturaII]

Originally Posted by Gforce

So if you prefer a BRZ that is only really usable on the track by all means ignore my advice. If you want a better handling road car that is fun to drive year round regardless of weather build yourself a 2017 suspension. Add MCA traction brackets and see how you like it.

So, wait - your advice this whole time has been to make changes that typically increase understeer and make the car more forgiving to the inexperienced (stiffer front, softer rear, reducing anti squat), but now you're saying people should make the BRZ handle more like the FRS, which you previously described as being poorer handling on track because of it's more aggressive turn in/balance. Which is it?






Edit:

Originally Posted by Gforce

No tracks around here.

The community on this board is a bit odd. Possibly too young.

I also very much doubt that a lack of age and/or experience on this board is the problem we're having with what you're saying...


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11431

[Icecreamtruk]

This thread swings more than a crab fishing boat on the siberian sea (weird reference, I know...).

From my own track data and trying different camber settings, anything less than -3 degress of camber up front is leaving time on the track and wearing the tires wrong, this applies to the 200TW tires (UHP) and entry level R-comps. A lesser tire could require less possibly, altho MPSS seem to require about the same.

I agree that a car that understeers a bit more on corner entry is better for good times (trail braking made easier), at least for those less experienced and used to dealing with a happy tail car. But going about changing the characteristics of the car by reducing the available grip is wrong, increase grip all you can on both ends of the car, then dial out the behavior you dont want, not the other way around.

Just to leave this out there, on a stiffer/lower suspension, and 245 RS4 tires, at -3.6 camber up front, I have even wear and a good spread of temperature (needle pyrometer used, 5 degrees between outer and mid, and 5 more between mid and inner, about perfect). If you really think you dont need more than 1 or 2 degrees, you arent pushing nearly as hard as you though you were.