Review: xiiimotorsports strut tower bar

[GrimmSpeed]

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

I will tell you right now the Xiiimotorsports bar will do everything anyone elses bar does...... Not for one minutes will you sell me on stronger better faster.. Look what the bar bolts to, a piece of shit thin metal bracket held on by 4 spot welds...... (its only as strong as its weakest link)

Presenting opinion as fact is a very dangerous thing to a community. The "POS thin metal bracket held on by 4 spot welds" is a LOT stronger than you think. Just because a bracket is thin, doesn't mean it's weak, especially if it is stamped into a known TESTED structure. 4 spot welds can also hold a LOT more than you think, especially when they are designed with a specific mounting intent to do so. The engineers who designed this car were not born yesterday, and certainly knew what they were doing when that designed a mount that takes loads from both cornering, as well as braking.

Now while on the forum there has been one failure of the spot welds on this mount, on a car that has seen track time, without any additional failures it really seems more like a manufacturing defect rather than a design flaw.

BUT, I've also seen this:



Mount and strut bar completely in tact. Stock reinforcement bar completely buckled. This was from a forward impact, and it didnt affect the spot welds, but completely bent the stock bar. Do you have any idea what kind of forces it would take from a foward (completely compressive) hit to bend that bar? And in order to do so all the force would have had to have been transmitted through the "POS thin metal bracket held on by 4 spot welds."

So that bracket is FAR from the weakest link in the system.

That's like saying the strut towers wont be able to take the force of the spring and shock load, as well as any fore, aft, lateral forces generated from the tire because it's made out of thin sheet metal. The same thickness as the bracket in fact.

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

It's getting real annoying people say how their crap is the best and it's nothing more than a copy of what's been done.
How about we invent something new and revolutionary, equipment that works instead of a modified copy.... Look at the new turbo kits mostly copies of something that someone else has already done.. roll bars just about a identical copy of what's been done.. And half the new shit is worse than the old and dangerous....


Come on People we are better than this........shm

I'm not sure if this rant is toward us, so I will assume it is not. I just wanted to make it clear that you can not simply look at something and decide if it works or not. That's why we do tons of design, tons of development, and tons of TESTING.

The people who are making copies are not. And unfortunately many places that are are committing the sin I just posted where you "look at something and decide if it works or not." The copies (and the people who buy the copies) are scaring real research and development away, which is why you keep seeing the same old stuff over and over.

Cue that mic drop,
Chase
Engineering

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed

Presenting opinion as fact is a very dangerous thing to a community. The "POS thin metal bracket held on by 4 spot welds" is a LOT stronger than you think. Just because a bracket is thin, doesn't mean it's weak, especially if it is stamped into a known TESTED structure. 4 spot welds can also hold a LOT more than you think, especially when they are designed with a specific mounting intent to do so. The engineers who designed this car were not born yesterday, and certainly knew what they were doing when that designed a mount that takes loads from both cornering, as well as braking.

Now while on the forum there has been one failure of the spot welds on this mount, on a car that has seen track time, without any additional failures it really seems more like a manufacturing defect rather than a design flaw.

BUT, I've also seen this:



Mount and strut bar completely in tact. Stock reinforcement bar completely buckled. This was from a forward impact, and it didnt affect the spot welds, but completely bent the stock bar. Do you have any idea what kind of forces it would take from a foward (completely compressive) hit to bend that bar? And in order to do so all the force would have had to have been transmitted through the "POS thin metal bracket held on by 4 spot welds."

So that bracket is FAR from the weakest link in the system.

That's like saying the strut towers wont be able to take the force of the spring and shock load, as well as any fore, aft, lateral forces generated from the tire because it's made out of thin sheet metal. The same thickness as the bracket in fact.



I'm not sure if this rant is toward us, so I will assume it is not. I just wanted to make it clear that you can not simply look at something and decide if it works or not. That's why we do tons of design, tons of development, and tons of TESTING.

The people who are making copies are not. And unfortunately many places that are are committing the sin I just posted where you "look at something and decide if it works or not." The copies (and the people who buy the copies) are scaring real research and development away, which is why you keep seeing the same old stuff over and over.

Cue that mic drop,
Chase
Engineering

Once again your wrong, you have failed to acknowledge the crumple zones built into the car, that's true engineering. Do really believe that your magic bar stopped all that damage??? You might as well say strapping a pillow to the steering wheel is as good as a air bag..
Like you said frontal impact. The crumple zones reduce the kinetic energy of the impact. Show me a picture of your bar after getting a side impact into the wheel strut area...


now the "mic drop"


didn't mean to hurt any feeling but come on

[GrimmSpeed]

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

Once again your wrong, you have failed to acknowledge the crumple zones built into the car, that's true engineering. Do really believe that your magic bar stopped all that damage??? You might as well say strapping a pillow to the steering wheel is as good as a air bag..
Like you said frontal impact. The crumple zones reduce the kinetic energy of the impact. Show me a picture of your bar after getting a side impact into the wheel strut area...

Unfortunately you've missed the point of what I wrote completely. Go back and re-read it. My entire post was not about our strut bar at all, the entire post was about the strength of the bracket that you were questioning.

Hopefully you can see it in a new light once you understand what you're looking at.

And no hurt feelings at all, I'm simply here to educate.

Chase
Engineering

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed

Unfortunately you've missed the point of what I wrote completely. Go back and re-read it. My entire post was not about our strut bar at all, the entire post was about the strength of the bracket that you were questioning.

Hopefully you can see it in a new light once you understand what you're looking at.

And no hurt feelings at all, I'm simply here to educate.

Chase
Engineering

I didn't miss anything but lets take it back a step.


1: I stated, that their bar will do what anyone else's will and the brackets are the weakest link. Can we agree on that. This whole thread is about a bar.


2: You decided to go off topic and shift over to the brackets again this thread was about the bars...


3: 2 things you need to accept 1 the brackets are not designed to be used with a cross bar and the correct way to build one would be to attach it to the strut tower directly but your all engineers and know this, attaching anything to the factory brackets could create a negative outcome of the OEM design. I know everyone does it but that doesn't mean its right. 2: the factory brackets are made to tear away in a crash and to help absorb kinetic energy in a crash. If not wouldn't it be cheaper for Subaru to bolt the bar to the strut tower.... You can belittle me all you want or talk down to me all you want I don't care.
If your going to educate at least tell the whole story instead of the one that sales...

[ModBargains.com]

Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed

Unfortunately you've missed the point of what I wrote completely. Go back and re-read it. My entire post was not about our strut bar at all, the entire post was about the strength of the bracket that you were questioning.

Hopefully you can see it in a new light once you understand what you're looking at.

And no hurt feelings at all, I'm simply here to educate.

Chase
Engineering

ive always been a fan of your products! hoping that we can carry them at mod!

[Shankenstein]

First off, please try to be respectful when criticizing a supplier who actively supports our community (with engineering content, customer support, group buys, and vendor fees).

As a quality engineer, I'll add my 2 cents:
- Bolting to that area is relatively risk-free. There's plenty of reinforcement at the strut mounts, and M10 bolts can withstand ~5000 lbs in single shear (Class 8.8). With 2 on each side, I'm pretty certain other components will be failing first.
- The difference between stitch/spot welds and running a full bead is minimal. Tack welds are a different story.
- The XIIIMotorsports bar looks over-designed, but more structural rigidity is a good thing.
- If Grimmspeed isn't getting significant field returns or customer complaints, that's a good indicator of quality. Validation/Simulations are an important part of the R&D process, but field data is king.

We all want good quality parts in the aftermarket, and both of these fit the bill. From what I can tell XIIIMotorsports makes some legit bushings/mounts for other vehicles. Their bar looks beefy. There's no reason to suspect that they copied Grimmspeed's design, since this is a mature product sector with FT86Speedfactory and Perrin also having similar "keep it simple" solutions.

If I were in the market for a strut brace, I'd support the guys who invested early in their R&D with legit tools (like a FARO arm), data analysis, and taking the time to market the product transparently.

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by Shankenstein

First off, please try to be respectful when criticizing a supplier who actively supports our community (with engineering content, customer support, group buys, and vendor fees).

As a quality engineer, I'll add my 2 cents:
- Bolting to that area is relatively risk-free. There's plenty of reinforcement at the strut mounts, and M10 bolts can withstand ~5000 lbs in single shear (Class 8.8). With 2 on each side, I'm pretty certain other components will be failing first.
- The difference between stitch/spot welds and running a full bead is minimal. Tack welds are a different story.
- The XIIIMotorsports bar looks over-designed, but more structural rigidity is a good thing.
- If Grimmspeed isn't getting significant field returns or customer complaints, that's a good indicator of quality. Validation/Simulations are an important part of the R&D process, but field data is king.

We all want good quality parts in the aftermarket, and both of these fit the bill. From what I can tell XIIIMotorsports makes some legit bushings/mounts for other vehicles. Their bar looks beefy. There's no reason to suspect that they copied Grimmspeed's design, since this is a mature product sector with FT86Speedfactory and Perrin also having similar "keep it simple" solutions.

If I were in the market for a strut brace, I'd support the guys who invested early in their R&D with legit tools (like a FARO arm), data analysis, and taking the time to market the product transparently.

First off I believe respect should be both ways not just one way. When people speak to others as if they are ignorant I lose respect quick. If my opening post was a little to blunt for some and their feelings are hurt I apologize .
Now as far as bars go, I could care less who's bar it is, if it's bolted to the brackets it will perform the same.. IF they are built comparably the same.
Here is the kicker that really needs to be addressed in my opinion.
The brackets are not designed to be used for a crossbar and that's apparent.
1. they are thin
2. they are spot welded with 4 spots.
The factory bars are designed to absorb kinetic energy from a crash. Along with the crumple zones. So when you triangulate the bars you just strengthened a safety feature and effectively rendered it useless as it will no longer perform as designed, that's a fact....
Some people don't care, some people don't think about it but all in all it should be known to all this is a safety device modification.
Now as far as stitch welding, spot welding and seam welding it is far from a minimal in strength difference but that's another topic. The bolt shear strength doesn't really matter as the welds will fail before the bolts.
In all fairness I will say I run a crossbar and it is bolted to the bracket. Also I run the Grimmspeed hood struts.. I have no problem with Grimmspeed...Or any other vendor but I will never lay down and let someone talk to me in a belittling way. Period....I don't hold it against the company that one engineer made some questionable remarks he could have been having a bad day, we all do.....

[GrimmSpeed]

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

First off I believe respect should be both ways not just one way. When people speak to others as if they are ignorant I lose respect quick.

I strongly agree with this, as this is exactly how I operate. However, here is a small example of where you spoke to me as if I were ignorant and insulted our design and engineering efforts:

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

It's getting real annoying people say how their crap is the best and it's nothing more than a copy of what's been done.

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

And half the new shit is worse than the old and dangerous....


Come on People we are better than this........shm

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

Once again your wrong

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

that's true engineering.

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

Do really believe that your magic bar stopped all that damage??? You might as well say strapping a pillow to the steering wheel is as good as a air bag..

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

didn't mean to hurt any feeling but come on

I engaged in this discussion providing not only facts, but actual photo evidence backing up my claims about the mounting brackets not "being the weak link."

It was the negative comments insinuating that what we do isn't true engineering, and that we have no clue what we're talking about that forced me to leave the conversation instead of further explaining the strength of the brackets. A 3 dimensional formed piece of steel is stronger than its "thin," flat counterpart. And the strength of the bar must be at least comparable to provide significant benefit. That is why my comments about the bracket were relevant, despite your claim that they are not. Again, this is why I left the conversation and will be gone after. I apologize to those who were interested in continued discussion.

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

Now as far as bars go, I could care less who's bar it is, if it's bolted to the brackets it will perform the same.. IF they are built comparably the same.

That's a lofty claim, do you have any data to back that up, or is that purely anecdotal?

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

The factory bars are designed to absorb kinetic energy from a crash.

Source? I'm interested to see any sort of proof or information that they are designed as part of the crumple zones.

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

So when you triangulate the bars you just strengthened a safety feature and effectively rendered it useless as it will no longer perform as designed, that's a fact....

Again, I'm interested to see any data or information about this. I know that I posted a picture showing the opposite of this, but I'm open to any proof that you have if that is a fact.

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

In all fairness I will say I run a crossbar and it is bolted to the bracket. Also I run the Grimmspeed hood struts.. I have no problem with Grimmspeed...Or any other vendor but I will never lay down and let someone talk to me in a belittling way. Period....I don't hold it against the company that one engineer made some questionable remarks he could have been having a bad day, we all do.....

We appreciate the support and that you like our products. As far as belittling comments go, I simply asked that you read what I wrote, because based on your response it appeared as though you had ignored it. If it's in reference to anything else, I'm not sure what you're talking about and for that I apologize.

However with that said, respect belongs where respect is due. I'm all for engaging in productive and educating discussions. When we make claims we provide evidence via testing or data. Many choose to ignore that, and that's okay. But to insult our abilities and knowledge as engineers and say that we're ignorant of the structural components and forces involved in vehicles that we make components for is beyond insulting. The anonymity of the internet I think makes people forget they are speaking to real people.

I greatly apologize for how off topic this review has gotten, and for that I'll be exiting the conversation. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree unless you have any data to back up any of your claims.

Chase
Engineering

[ichitaka05]

This thread have been interesting and educational.

[FRS Justin]

Ok let’s do this,
1: After my initial post the first sentence you said was
“Presenting opinion as fact is a very dangerous thing to a community. The "POS thin metal bracket held on by 4 spot welds" is a LOT stronger than you think. Just because a bracket is thin, doesn't mean it's weak, especially if it is stamped into a known TESTED structure. 4 spot welds can also hold a LOT more than you think, especially when they are designed with a specific mounting intent to do so. The engineers who designed this car were not born yesterday, and certainly knew what they were doing when that designed a mount that takes loads from both cornering, as well as braking”
I find this very rude and condescending, then you close with this jab.

“Cue that mic drop,
Chase
Engineering”

Cue the mic drop???? You say this and think I should show respect? Nowhere did I state anything about Grimmspeed, I even gave examples of what I was talking about. Here I will post it again so you can re-read it and maybe understand what im talking about. That’s basically what you told me right. I didn’t understand what I read.
“I will tell you right now the Xiiimotorsports bar will do everything anyone elses bar does...... Not for one minutes will you sell me on stronger better faster.. Look what the bar bolts to, a piece of shit thin metal bracket held on by 4 spot welds...... (its only as strong as its weakest link)
It's getting real annoying people say how their crap is the best and it's nothing more than a copy of what's been done.
How about we invent something new and revolutionary, equipment that works instead of a modified copy.... Look at the new turbo kits mostly copies of something that someone else has already done. roll bars just about a identical copy of what's been done. And half the new shit is worse than the old and dangerous....

Come on People we are better than this........shm”

This is directed to everyone, anyone who wants to develop not just you.
I’m not going to address every time your feelings were hurt so let’s move on.
“I engaged in this discussion providing not only facts, but actual photo evidence backing up my claims about the mounting brackets not "being the weak link."
Your photo evidence is not factual at all because it does not, will not, and cannot pertain to this discussion.

• Your bar triangulated the crumple zone and added extra strength to said area.
• It was a frontal impact. Like I said show me a side impact, also unless the owner sent the bar back to you I would not say the bar is intact without at least checking it for bends and stress cracks, that’s just me tho.
• Unless you have done testing, crash testing WITH AND WITHOUT your bar there is no comparison or data proving the bracket would not have torn loose as designed……

And yes I will try my best to post the data on the BRZ crumple zones and parts.

“Now as far as bars go, I could care less who's bar it is, if it's bolted to the brackets it will perform the same.. IF they are built comparably the same.”

“ That's a lofty claim, do you have any data to back that up, or is that purely anecdotal?”
I should ask you the same
Please post your results and data on the bars you tested against yours. No butt dynos or it just feels better please… hard data please


“So when you triangulate the bars you just strengthened a safety feature and effectively rendered it useless as it will no longer perform as designed, that's a fact...”.


I should clarify on this because I didn't write it clearly. Its not useless but is no longer up performing to factory spec. I apologize for the confusion.

Again, I'm interested to see any data or information about this. I know that I posted a picture showing the opposite of this, but I'm open to any proof that you have if that is a fact.”

Actually the picture shows exactly this. Engineering 101 a triangle is strong right, well the brackets didn't tear away

1: No one can say for sure because the car crash was not in a controlled environment under precise conditions so there is no way really to say.

Now when it comes to engineering a part or system everything works together change one thing and you and you changed the whole matrix….

I have over 30 years in the automotive field. I don’t dream this up. I will try my best to gather the info you requested it might be hard but I’m willing to try I have some contacts at Subaru.

So in closing does any of this really matter? Is a crossover bar going to fail and cost someone their life? Probably not or better yet most likely not very slim chance. Probably have a better chance of getting in a shark attack. But yes it does change things.

[NyC Zn6]

Smh i put a Cusco strut bar on over two years ago and have never felt a difference lol

[shellslinger]

Originally Posted by NyC Zn6

Smh i put a Cusco strut bar on over two years ago and have never felt a difference lol

Really? Cause I've been running that same Cusco strut tower bar for 2 years too and I've felt the difference. The difference knowing that I'm cooler than most twins out there cause I got a Cusco strut bar LOL

[churchx]

Wasn't Cusco sticker sufficient for that?

[fuddbutter]

I bought my Grimmspeed bar cause of the development thread on here, they are the only company that worked with the community to develop it, and showed so much of the testing and R&D that went into it!
For a company to do that, it earned a lot of respect in my books!

Keep up the good work boys!

Cusco I think had their strut brace out before the cars were released..

I also bought mine pretty much for looks, was surprised when I noticed a difference (think its due to the stiff, aftermarket coilovers)