follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
FT86 SpeedFactory
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota 86 GT 86 Forum | AS1 Forum - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Engine, Exhaust, Transmission

Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.

User Tag List
jpit

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-19-2012, 04:35 PM   #1
Jason@Nameless
 
Jason@Nameless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: '88 BMW 535is Turbo
Location: La Center, WA
Posts: 286
Thanks: 119
Thanked 792 Times in 153 Posts
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Nameless Performance Equal Length Stepped Header

We just wrapped up our first equal length stepped header for the BRZ, featuring mandrel bent T304 stainless construction and an optional high flow catalytic converter in the factory location for SCCA racing compliance. We're excited to take this and the next design or two we are working on to the dyno on Thursday.



So far this is what we have got to show - the first prototype system is a Tri-Y design featuring 1.625" equal length (within 0.8%/.125") primaries and equal length (within 8%/.5") 1.750" secondaries into a 200 cell high flow catalytic converter with a 2.5" outlet to the over-pipe (will be fabricating a 2.5" overpipe also). There are two secondaries at the bend that is facing left, they are stacked on top of each other, and the higher of the two is not visible in the photo. This header does fit in the factory skidtray and ceramic coating will be an option. We have also discussed a faceted sheet metal heat shield.

Our goal is to include our customers in our development process at every turn and we've got a fork in the road to determine which of the four other design ideas we should test first. So we'd like your input. According to our exhaust flow dynamics software the existing design is optimal with secondary runners being of a length that requires the removal of the catalytic converter. We were considering replicating this system exactly with long 1.75" secondaries in place of the catalytic converter. This would most likely require a jetted secondary oxygen sensor fooler to keep from throwing a check engine light.

Alternately, we can build out a torque biasing design using 1.5" primary pipes and 1.625" secondary tubing with a high flow catalytic converter like the first design. The other alternatives are to run a long tube stepped 4-1 design with or without a catalytic converter but utilizing one of the above primary/secondary sizes, or going up in size (not looking terribly favorable from our preliminary calculations).

So what would you like to see, we would love to have your feedback. All of the designs will probably get prototyped one way or the other. This is the first production header we will be offering and we'd like to gain as much development knowledge as possible from the process.

Lets chat!

Jason Griffith
Engineering Director
Nameless Performance

Last edited by Jason@Nameless; 06-20-2012 at 03:27 AM.
Jason@Nameless is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 87 Users Say Thank You to Jason@Nameless For This Useful Post:
20valvewynn83 (10-08-2012), 2fast4you (06-19-2012), 3MI Racing (06-20-2012), adprokid (06-21-2012), AJUSA.com (07-17-2012), altezza280t (09-13-2013), Anthonytpt (01-29-2013), armythug (06-19-2012), autobrz (06-19-2013), BAE (07-30-2012), baldolera (06-19-2012), blackfireball5 (07-04-2012), BobDigi5060 (06-21-2012), Bonburner (01-24-2013), boxer 2.5 (10-18-2013), Brzce (08-23-2012), BugeyedWagon (06-25-2012), CamryDS (07-05-2013), chanomatik (09-10-2012), chulooz (06-19-2012), civicdrivr (06-20-2012), CoRi J (06-20-2012), dura1198 (08-30-2012), Efferalgan (07-28-2013), ESBjiujitsu (06-20-2012), F3dzo (06-26-2012), flippy (08-10-2012), Fly Guy (06-19-2012), Freeman (10-25-2012), FRSPirate (06-19-2012), FT86POWER (07-03-2014), ftc~brz (02-02-2013), Grateful Dave (02-14-2014), Guff (06-21-2012), Ice_Man (06-25-2012), ill86 (06-25-2012), illmatic (06-19-2012), irax (01-04-2014), Jayde (06-20-2012), Jeff86 (11-18-2012), karbon (07-25-2012), karma003 (11-03-2013), Kiske (12-09-2013), kwood9000 (02-17-2013), lazyluka (07-28-2013), LivingLegend (06-19-2012), m0nty (07-03-2012), MannyO (06-20-2012), MarkRacerX (06-27-2012), MattR (06-19-2012), MaXimus (01-02-2013), Mike86 (05-01-2013), mpicher (06-23-2012), Mr. (09-18-2013), Neilus (06-22-2012), Noble713 (06-26-2012), QFry (08-09-2012), raul (04-15-2013), RazBRZ (09-11-2012), Ricepuddin (07-02-2012), RRnold (11-15-2013), RWD_only (06-19-2012), Scooby South (06-29-2012), Silp3 (02-21-2013), SkAsphalt (10-04-2012), sklimo (04-01-2014), Slartibartfast (10-12-2012), Snoopyalien24 (06-20-2012), soros151 (11-20-2012), sparks (06-25-2012), Spartan65 (10-11-2012), SprayedBigCube (07-08-2012), suaveflooder (09-07-2013), Surok (03-04-2013), Tad_07 (06-28-2012), Tainen (06-19-2012), tech4pdx (07-14-2013), Theothanatologist (10-30-2012), Touge Monster (06-28-2012), tripjammer (10-12-2012), ultra (01-05-2013), Visconti (07-04-2012), wheelhaus (08-23-2012), wlwarfield (01-17-2014), WRB-DZA-BRZ (06-20-2012), WRXGuy1 (01-23-2013), zoomzoomers (02-01-2013)
Old 06-19-2012, 04:38 PM   #2
Jason@Nameless
 
Jason@Nameless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: '88 BMW 535is Turbo
Location: La Center, WA
Posts: 286
Thanks: 119
Thanked 792 Times in 153 Posts
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Placeholder for more photos.
Jason@Nameless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 04:38 PM   #3
Jason@Nameless
 
Jason@Nameless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: '88 BMW 535is Turbo
Location: La Center, WA
Posts: 286
Thanks: 119
Thanked 792 Times in 153 Posts
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Update: Up 46ft lb and 36whp in the dip:



Dyno results of prototype 1.625 primary 4-2-1 Catted Header with full exhaust:

Combined Data (note that lower peak modded run made 29hp vs. the lower peak power baseline, albeit at the very top of the range). Needless to say, once the tuning solutions start popping up, this header will support some serious top end capacity...and the catless versions should do even better based on their ability to run more appropriate, longer, secondaries:



Horsepower Alone:



Torque Alone:



Gains in HP/TQ and % Increases:



(note, these graphs above are still for prototype parts, we're pretty confident there is more power to be had with other configurations that we will be testing very soon)

Weight Specifications:

Factory Header w/o Heat Shields: 15.0lbs
Nameless Performance Stepped 1.625-1.750 Catted Header w/o heat shields: 11.6lbs
Nameless Performance Stepped 1.500-1.625 Catted Header w/o heat shields: 10.9lbs

Last edited by Jason@Nameless; 02-13-2013 at 10:17 PM. Reason: Added ballistic torque graph....
Jason@Nameless is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 30 Users Say Thank You to Jason@Nameless For This Useful Post:
autobrz (06-19-2013), Bonburner (01-24-2013), carbonBLUE (06-27-2012), chanomatik (03-10-2014), Efferalgan (07-28-2013), fuddbutter (08-03-2012), Future (06-26-2012), Ice_Man (06-25-2012), juliog (08-09-2013), Kiske (12-09-2013), kwood9000 (02-17-2013), LeeMaster (12-31-2012), MarkRacerX (06-27-2012), Metabrz (06-24-2012), Mr. (09-18-2013), RehabJeff86 (12-01-2013), Scooby South (07-24-2012), ShoGun (06-28-2012), SkAsphalt (06-15-2013), sklimo (04-01-2014), Slartibartfast (10-12-2012), Snoopyalien24 (07-12-2012), soros151 (11-20-2012), sparks (06-25-2012), Surok (03-04-2013), Tad_07 (06-28-2012), tech4pdx (07-14-2013), tripjammer (02-16-2013), WRB-DZA-BRZ (06-13-2013), XCIV.Andrew (09-05-2013)
Old 06-19-2012, 04:40 PM   #4
Dave-ROR
Site Moderator
 
Dave-ROR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Drives: 95 M3, 13 BRZ-L, 00 GS-R, 96 Teg
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,385
Thanks: 388
Thanked 3,311 Times in 1,519 Posts
Mentioned: 150 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Wow FWIW that header looks nice. Since this will be a DD more than anything for me I'd prefer to keep the cat. Who makes the high flow you use btw?
__________________
-Dave
DD: 1995 BMW M3 || Street/Track car: 2013 BRZ-L || Track car: 2000 Integra GS-R || Race car: 1996 Integra something or the other

Too many cars.. never.
Dave-ROR is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dave-ROR For This Useful Post:
Fly Guy (06-19-2012)
Old 06-19-2012, 04:44 PM   #5
chulooz
Registered you sir
 
chulooz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Drives: 99 impreza coupe
Location: DC / CT
Posts: 1,642
Thanks: 257
Thanked 340 Times in 190 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I'd like to see results for this baby before I suggest your next move. (no cat/longer secondaries)
chulooz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 04:44 PM   #6
Jason@Nameless
 
Jason@Nameless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: '88 BMW 535is Turbo
Location: La Center, WA
Posts: 286
Thanks: 119
Thanked 792 Times in 153 Posts
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-ROR View Post
Wow FWIW that header looks nice. Since this will be a DD more than anything for me I'd prefer to keep the cat. Who makes the high flow you use btw?
It's a Magnaflow. We use them in our Jaguar XKR downpipes, Jaguar S-TypeR, Jaguar XJR, Subaru WRX & STi Downpipes, Kia Optima/Hyundai Sonata Turbo Midpipe and have had zero field failures in 2.5 years. And Supercharged Jaguars eat factory catalytic converters for lunch.

Jason Griffith
Engineering Director
Nameless Performance, Inc.
Jason@Nameless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 04:45 PM   #7
Tainen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Drives: First SWP BRZ-L
Location: Washington
Posts: 809
Thanks: 150
Thanked 346 Times in 171 Posts
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I'd be real wary of a non-catted header system right now I think. I say that because we don't have any tuning solutions, so the stock o2 sensors are expecting a cat of some sort. I'm no tuner so I don't know what that would do, but without the ability to properly adjust the ECU to account for cat-less, I'd stay with the cat. Maybe target a catless system for 4 months out or so, when ECU tuning is more prevalent.

For now, my biggest concern is the heat soak. It's right next to that coolant line, and surrounds the oil pan. Doing some sort of a coating or wrap would probably help, but I'd love to see temperature data on the difference to know that a coating or wrap would be good enough to keep coolant/oil temps in check (and to keep that line from melting).

Where does the 02 bung go?
Will I melt my coolant line without coating this thing, or cause bad coolant temps?
For a torque bias design with smaller diameter pipes, what would you think it would do, higher torque down low but less overall power? percentages or thoughts?

excited to see dyno graphs.
__________________
First white BRZ in the country
Limited SWP BRZ, 35% tint, clear bra, Nameless Performance downpipe, axelback, headers
Tainen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 04:48 PM   #8
Dave-ROR
Site Moderator
 
Dave-ROR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Drives: 95 M3, 13 BRZ-L, 00 GS-R, 96 Teg
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,385
Thanks: 388
Thanked 3,311 Times in 1,519 Posts
Mentioned: 150 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason@Nameless View Post
It's a Magnaflow. We use them in our Jaguar XKR downpipes, Jaguar S-TypeR, Jaguar XJR, Subaru WRX & STi Downpipes, Kia Optima/Hyundai Sonata Turbo Midpipe and have had zero field failures in 2.5 years. And Supercharged Jaguars eat factory catalytic converters for lunch.

Jason Griffith
Engineering Director
Nameless Performance, Inc.
Cool I've never used a magnaflow one. Lots have had great experiences with renault high flows like HiTech uses. I've had horrible experience with junk like carsound high flow cats.
__________________
-Dave
DD: 1995 BMW M3 || Street/Track car: 2013 BRZ-L || Track car: 2000 Integra GS-R || Race car: 1996 Integra something or the other

Too many cars.. never.
Dave-ROR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 04:50 PM   #9
Dave-ROR
Site Moderator
 
Dave-ROR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Drives: 95 M3, 13 BRZ-L, 00 GS-R, 96 Teg
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,385
Thanks: 388
Thanked 3,311 Times in 1,519 Posts
Mentioned: 150 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tainen View Post
For now, my biggest concern is the heat soak. It's right next to that coolant line, and surrounds the oil pan. Doing some sort of a coating or wrap would probably help, but I'd love to see temperature data on the difference to know that a coating or wrap would be good enough to keep coolant/oil temps in check (and to keep that line from melting).
Disclaimer: I have no subaru experience.

However, headers on Hondas can be <1" from the oil pan and very close to AC lines and some coolant lines and it's never caused an issue there.

Although I'm sure they can offer a model with a heatshield.. IMO it's just one more thing to break. Coating wouldn't be a bad idea. I don't like wraps myself..
__________________
-Dave
DD: 1995 BMW M3 || Street/Track car: 2013 BRZ-L || Track car: 2000 Integra GS-R || Race car: 1996 Integra something or the other

Too many cars.. never.
Dave-ROR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 05:05 PM   #10
Jason@Nameless
 
Jason@Nameless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: '88 BMW 535is Turbo
Location: La Center, WA
Posts: 286
Thanks: 119
Thanked 792 Times in 153 Posts
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tainen View Post
I'd be real wary of a non-catted header system right now I think. I say that because we don't have any tuning solutions, so the stock o2 sensors are expecting a cat of some sort. I'm no tuner so I don't know what that would do, but without the ability to properly adjust the ECU to account for cat-less, I'd stay with the cat. Maybe target a catless system for 4 months out or so, when ECU tuning is more prevalent.

For now, my biggest concern is the heat soak. It's right next to that coolant line, and surrounds the oil pan. Doing some sort of a coating or wrap would probably help, but I'd love to see temperature data on the difference to know that a coating or wrap would be good enough to keep coolant/oil temps in check (and to keep that line from melting).

Where does the 02 bung go?
Will I melt my coolant line without coating this thing, or cause bad coolant temps?
For a torque bias design with smaller diameter pipes, what would you think it would do, higher torque down low but less overall power? percentages or thoughts?

excited to see dyno graphs.
Concerns on Catless: I'm not as worried about this as it seems you are. The primary O2 sensor is the critical sensor to provide closed loop feedback to the ECU for proper functionality of the fuel maps. That being said, there is a bit of a challenge in getting a good metering of all four runners should we choose a tri-y catless design. The secondary O2 sensor is, on almost all cars, only used for monitory catalyst efficiency and warm-up times. So really the challenge for us is to develop an secondary O2 sensor bung that will limit what that sensor sees so that the ECU doesn't throw a code for primary catalyst below efficiency or primary catalyst warmup. I've run catless on many turbocharged and naturally aspirated engines with no check engine lights if the secondary O2 sensor challenges are met.

Heat concerns: This is a naturally aspirated car with very little backpressure in the primary catalytic converter. If it were a turbo car, I'd expect to see manifolds glowing white hot, but in this application I am not a bit concerned about proximity to the coolant line or the oil pan if some method of shielding is provided. As for melting the coolant hose, you'd have to work REAL hard to accomplish that. Even a small air gap in that are is going to provide enough thermal barrier to prevent that heat from reaching damaging levels. The good news is, we do have the ability to build faceted heat shields to selectively reduce the thermal transfer between critical components. We also have laser temp guns to monitor temperatures on the dyno. And we will be doing so. The other thing to note is that a two dimensional photo doesn't do justice to the distances that exist between these components. We did our best to keep the equal length while optimizing clearance for future development of heat shields as well as keeping this as clear as possible from the engine.

Additionally, if you're worried about track oil temps, we have plans for a thermostatically controlled oil cooler as well - but I think your track driving behavior is going to be the oil temp modifier far more than the headers proximity to the oil pan. Again, all things we plan on monitoring and gathering data from in order to add components that are necessary for optimal design on the street and the track.

As for the O2 sensor bungs, they are in the factory locations up top.

Torque biasing header I think you would indeed sacrifice top end power, but it's really a testing question - if you gain 8 additional ft-lb of torque and lose 2hp at the top end, that's an easy selection to make. We could also do a triple stepped design, but again, that requires all of the real estate occupied by the header.

More questions/thoughts!! Keep em comin'!

Jason Griffith
Engineering Director
Nameless Performance, Inc.
Jason@Nameless is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Jason@Nameless For This Useful Post:
autobrz (06-19-2013), Bonburner (07-23-2012), civicdrivr (06-20-2012), dun3 (03-25-2013), lucchesi423 (06-20-2012), sparks (06-25-2012), tripjammer (02-16-2013), WRXGuy1 (01-23-2013)
Old 06-19-2012, 05:06 PM   #11
icemang17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: Scion FR-S
Location: Stockton CA
Posts: 173
Thanks: 2
Thanked 93 Times in 51 Posts
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
sweet header!!!!

I also think a torque increasing header is a great idea....the high flow exhaust and intake will increase top end power.....the ideal powerband for racing (track) is 4500-7000 or so....unless you need 2nd gear, then it would be 7400 (redline)...

It looks like I will use 3-4-5 (maybe) at my home track, Thunderhill in Willows CA...I think 2nd is a bit too low, since the slowest corners are 40-45mph, and followed by turns...so you would have to short shift, or redline shift at the apex (not a good idea)

My current race car performs quite well, due to its high low end torque.....it provides a significant advantage getting off the corners....
icemang17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 05:07 PM   #12
Jason@Nameless
 
Jason@Nameless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: '88 BMW 535is Turbo
Location: La Center, WA
Posts: 286
Thanks: 119
Thanked 792 Times in 153 Posts
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-ROR View Post
However, headers on Hondas can be <1" from the oil pan and very close to AC lines and some coolant lines and it's never caused an issue there.

<snip> I don't like wraps myself..
I agree with all of this. The header wraps work fine on T304, but they will accelerate degradation of the material. Remember, just because you alloy stainless with a pile of nickel and chromium doesn't mean you get rid of the iron and carbon.

Jason Griffith
Engineering Director
Nameless Performance, Inc.
Jason@Nameless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 05:11 PM   #13
Jason@Nameless
 
Jason@Nameless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: '88 BMW 535is Turbo
Location: La Center, WA
Posts: 286
Thanks: 119
Thanked 792 Times in 153 Posts
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-ROR View Post
Cool I've never used a magnaflow one. Lots have had great experiences with renault high flows like HiTech uses. I've had horrible experience with junk like carsound high flow cats.
We've worked with the US Built Vibrant units (one of the only parts they have made in the USA) which are nice but extremely spendy, Magnaflow, Eastern Catalytic as well as the old Carsound brand. We have sold > 200 of these in 2.5 years with zero failures. And we back the products we incorporate into our systems. If you got a failure, we'd replace it. And it would probably drive us to investigate a change in manufacturer, but up till now we're very pleased with these spun metallic units.

Jason Griffith
Engineering Director
Nameless Performance, Inc.
Jason@Nameless is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Jason@Nameless For This Useful Post:
civicdrivr (06-20-2012)
Old 06-19-2012, 05:15 PM   #14
uspspro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Drives: DGM BRZ, MR-S 3.5L V6 swap (sold)
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 616
Thanks: 27
Thanked 172 Times in 111 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
I vote for:

1) Keeping a primary cat
2) A metal heatshield for a more "OEM " look (so upon a brief inspection it doesn't look "modified")

As far as flow designs - I would test the current design vs. the torque biasing.
uspspro is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to uspspro For This Useful Post:
csaba (06-20-2012), Fly Guy (06-19-2012), ftc~brz (02-01-2013), Grateful Dave (02-15-2014)
Old 06-19-2012, 05:18 PM   #15
Jason@Nameless
 
Jason@Nameless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: '88 BMW 535is Turbo
Location: La Center, WA
Posts: 286
Thanks: 119
Thanked 792 Times in 153 Posts
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by icemang17 View Post
sweet header!!!!

I also think a torque increasing header is a great idea....the high flow exhaust and intake will increase top end power.....the ideal powerband for racing (track) is 4500-7000 or so....unless you need 2nd gear, then it would be 7400 (redline)...
Intuitively I think that a good design (ie equal length and routing) would offset the possible small losses in a smaller stepped design. So far it is the direction I'm leaning. Either a 1.5-1.625 or a triple step 1.5-1.625-1.375. Biasing peak HP at 6000rpm our software said 1.375-1.500-1.625!!! 7500 it indicated 1.500-1.625. But we're doing a few major assumptions on camshaft profile as well as lift, which no-one has at this point. I got the valve sizes, I talked to the guys at Brian Crower to discuss what their thoughts were given their experience with naturally aspirated Subarus and we made the best guess for the information we had on hand. I've searched every FSM and had our contacts at 2-3 major dealerships help in that search and found nothing.

We also used the other data available: What the factory used. While I doubt a lot of the factory's reasoning for a lot of their design concepts, header diameter doesn't have any 'reason' to change the bias for economy or engine behavior for the most part. Now, why they ran an unequal length design (32% variance between Y lengths) from the factory when they could have accomplished exactly what we did is beyond me...but then again, Subaru sends the US insanely unequal length headers for the STi and the JDM model gets EL header w/ Twin Scroll turbo.

Jason Griffith
Engineering Director
Nameless Performance, Inc.
360.263.5001
Jason@Nameless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 05:21 PM   #16
Jason@Nameless
 
Jason@Nameless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: '88 BMW 535is Turbo
Location: La Center, WA
Posts: 286
Thanks: 119
Thanked 792 Times in 153 Posts
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by uspspro View Post
I vote for:

1) Keeping a primary cat
2) A metal heatshield for a more "OEM " look (so upon a brief inspection it doesn't look "modified")

As far as flow designs - I would test the current design vs. the torque biasing.
Spoken like a true comrade of the Democratic Peoples Republic of California. :-D I grew up there so I feel your pain. And I completely agree that an option for this is of primary concern for California residents. #AlsoTheReasonIMovedToWA

Going to do some look-see from the top and bottom to see how crazy we'd have to go on this to accomplish what you're describing.

Jason Griffith
Engineering Director
Nameless Performance, Inc.
Jason@Nameless is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Jason@Nameless For This Useful Post:
Bonburner (07-23-2012), ftc~brz (02-01-2013), Grateful Dave (02-15-2014), helloimgil (02-26-2013), JimmyMac (05-01-2013), sdlynx (07-24-2012)
Old 06-19-2012, 05:23 PM   #17
uspspro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Drives: DGM BRZ, MR-S 3.5L V6 swap (sold)
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 616
Thanks: 27
Thanked 172 Times in 111 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Maybe two versions.

Some of us may end up making more top end through tuning and maybe cams.

It would be sweet if the torque curve held on for another 500 rpm.
uspspro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 05:25 PM   #18
uspspro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Drives: DGM BRZ, MR-S 3.5L V6 swap (sold)
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 616
Thanks: 27
Thanked 172 Times in 111 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason@Nameless View Post
Spoken like a true comrade of the Democratic Peoples Republic of California. :-D I grew up there so I feel your pain. And I completely agree that an option for this is of primary concern for California residents. #AlsoTheReasonIMovedToWA

Going to do some look-see from the top and bottom to see how crazy we'd have to go on this to accomplish what you're describing.

Jason Griffith
Engineering Director
Nameless Performance, Inc.
You got it!

I also don't mind swapping parts every couple years, so I don't need too much in the way of "design compromise."

Hell, I have a 3.5L 2GRFE in my MR2 Spyder
uspspro is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to uspspro For This Useful Post:
Fly Guy (06-19-2012), sdlynx (07-24-2012)
Old 06-19-2012, 05:39 PM   #19
Jason@Nameless
 
Jason@Nameless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: '88 BMW 535is Turbo
Location: La Center, WA
Posts: 286
Thanks: 119
Thanked 792 Times in 153 Posts
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by uspspro View Post
Maybe two versions.

Some of us may end up making more top end through tuning and maybe cams.

It would be sweet if the torque curve held on for another 500 rpm.
We'll make as many configurations as function for different applications. I did the math again last night and our 2011-2012 STi Sedan TurboBack Exhaust has 20,412 possible configurations. If there's reason to sell multiple designs with varied configurations, we'll do our best to facilitate that. Especially when it comes to preferential items like heat shields vs. ceramic coating. I don't want to jack the price of the base header up just to add provisions for heat shields if someone isn't going to use them. We do have a great stockpile of ceramic wool (one level higher density than the factory heat shield packing - the only place I've ever seen that material on a production car) to work with for bolt on heat shielding options because we pack our mufflers with it. I can put a single 1" thick pad of it on the palm of my hand and blast it with a MAP gas torch without any heat on the other side. We threw a chunk of it, soaked in oil, into a bonfire and it survived intact.

Jason Griffith
Engineering Director
Nameless Performance, Inc.
Follow us on Facebook to see our day to day progress.
360.263.5001
Jason@Nameless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2012, 06:03 PM   #20
Dave-ROR
Site Moderator
 
Dave-ROR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Drives: 95 M3, 13 BRZ-L, 00 GS-R, 96 Teg
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,385
Thanks: 388
Thanked 3,311 Times in 1,519 Posts
Mentioned: 150 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason@Nameless View Post
We've worked with the US Built Vibrant units (one of the only parts they have made in the USA) which are nice but extremely spendy, Magnaflow, Eastern Catalytic as well as the old Carsound brand. We have sold > 200 of these in 2.5 years with zero failures. And we back the products we incorporate into our systems. If you got a failure, we'd replace it. And it would probably drive us to investigate a change in manufacturer, but up till now we're very pleased with these spun metallic units.

Jason Griffith
Engineering Director
Nameless Performance, Inc.
Good to know.

In many ways I'd prefer catless (o2sim or mounting the so2s a bit out of the flow to fix the cel issue) but I really don't want to deal with cleaning the back of another catless car
__________________
-Dave
DD: 1995 BMW M3 || Street/Track car: 2013 BRZ-L || Track car: 2000 Integra GS-R || Race car: 1996 Integra something or the other

Too many cars.. never.
Dave-ROR is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dave-ROR For This Useful Post:
civicdrivr (06-20-2012), DC2R (01-20-2014)
Old 06-19-2012, 06:09 PM   #21
Tainen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Drives: First SWP BRZ-L
Location: Washington
Posts: 809
Thanks: 150
Thanked 346 Times in 171 Posts
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason@Nameless View Post
Concerns on Catless: I'm not as worried about this as it seems you are. The primary O2 sensor is the critical sensor to provide closed loop feedback to the ECU for proper functionality of the fuel maps. That being said, there is a bit of a challenge in getting a good metering of all four runners should we choose a tri-y catless design. The secondary O2 sensor is, on almost all cars, only used for monitory catalyst efficiency and warm-up times. So really the challenge for us is to develop an secondary O2 sensor bung that will limit what that sensor sees so that the ECU doesn't throw a code for primary catalyst below efficiency or primary catalyst warmup. I've run catless on many turbocharged and naturally aspirated engines with no check engine lights if the secondary O2 sensor challenges are met.

Heat concerns: This is a naturally aspirated car with very little backpressure in the primary catalytic converter. If it were a turbo car, I'd expect to see manifolds glowing white hot, but in this application I am not a bit concerned about proximity to the coolant line or the oil pan if some method of shielding is provided. As for melting the coolant hose, you'd have to work REAL hard to accomplish that. Even a small air gap in that are is going to provide enough thermal barrier to prevent that heat from reaching damaging levels. The good news is, we do have the ability to build faceted heat shields to selectively reduce the thermal transfer between critical components. We also have laser temp guns to monitor temperatures on the dyno. And we will be doing so. The other thing to note is that a two dimensional photo doesn't do justice to the distances that exist between these components. We did our best to keep the equal length while optimizing clearance for future development of heat shields as well as keeping this as clear as possible from the engine.

Additionally, if you're worried about track oil temps, we have plans for a thermostatically controlled oil cooler as well - but I think your track driving behavior is going to be the oil temp modifier far more than the headers proximity to the oil pan. Again, all things we plan on monitoring and gathering data from in order to add components that are necessary for optimal design on the street and the track.

As for the O2 sensor bungs, they are in the factory locations up top.

Torque biasing header I think you would indeed sacrifice top end power, but it's really a testing question - if you gain 8 additional ft-lb of torque and lose 2hp at the top end, that's an easy selection to make. We could also do a triple stepped design, but again, that requires all of the real estate occupied by the header.

More questions/thoughts!! Keep em comin'!

Jason Griffith
Engineering Director
Nameless Performance, Inc.
OK so if we just throw the 2nd o2 sensor post downpipe cat that'd work then, for people that have a catted downpipe? I know some in the STI world do that.

OK, you sold me. I'll take a header system with some sort of coating or shielding. Delivered by... say... thursday night, to my front door.

and pick me up some o2 sensors for my daily driver while you're at it- and then you've earned a customer for life.
__________________
First white BRZ in the country
Limited SWP BRZ, 35% tint, clear bra, Nameless Performance downpipe, axelback, headers
Tainen is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Tainen For This Useful Post:
Jason@Nameless (06-19-2012)
Old 06-19-2012, 06:10 PM   #22
Jason@Nameless
 
Jason@Nameless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: '88 BMW 535is Turbo
Location: La Center, WA
Posts: 286
Thanks: 119
Thanked 792 Times in 153 Posts
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-ROR View Post
Good to know.

In many ways I'd prefer catless (o2sim or mounting the so2s a bit out of the flow to fix the cel issue) but I really don't want to deal with cleaning the back of another catless car
There's always the secondary catalyst in the downpipe. Also, we have contemplated what our options are for making the secondary catalyst the monitored catalyst. Really not much room to get the sensor that far back, but we could always engineer a solution to make that work.

j
Jason@Nameless is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Jason@Nameless For This Useful Post:
acro (05-26-2013)
 
Reply

Tags
21 months no dyno, 22 months no vendor dyno, 22months4rattles&leakssmh, amazing warped qualiy, y u no tag

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Nameless Performance BRZ Axleback Exhaust ESBjiujitsu Engine, Exhaust, Transmission 1368 08-25-2014 11:07 AM
Nameless Performance Axleback is available for pre-order. Nameless Performance Inc. Engine, Exhaust, Bolt-Ons 114 07-23-2012 09:38 PM
Nameless Performance Downpipe is available for pre-order. Nameless Performance Inc. Engine, Exhaust, Bolt-Ons 4 07-12-2012 03:57 PM
We are Nameless Performance. John@Nameless Announcements, Contests, Giveaways 22 06-18-2012 10:32 PM
Nameless Performance is here. Nameless Performance Inc. Engine, Exhaust, Bolt-Ons 16 06-06-2012 03:32 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.