Why Scion FR-S Sales Have Plunged

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I totally agree with you on the scenarios but it is the GT86 forum so of course people are going to support it.
With the constant statements about how great 'Stangs/Miatas/WRXs/etc are for right or wrong people get defensive.
So many people love to throw on here how great another car is (Miata?) and then think it is weird when everybody here steps up to defend the car they own and love.
If I went over to the Mustang or Miata forums and made comparisons running down their pride and joys I bet I would get the exact same responses.
There is no disputing that many cars do some things better and just as many do other things worse.
Congrats to somebody like Slowbutfun that didn't like his car and moved on to something that better suits his needs since that is exactly what should happen. What doesn't need to happen is him, and others like him, that move on but still seem to need to keep coming back, beating their chests and screaming ""stangs rule".
The other crowd are the ones that probably have never even sat in one but have loads to say because they read an article once. Sure they have an opinion but it is not based on any actual facts beyond what they read.

I just kinda get worked up when people try so hard to make an opinion sound like a fact and use useless scenarios to justify it. Personally, I think the brz suits me better than any other car and almost any price. It has a lot of short comings and there are definitely better performers in the price range. It is okay to really like something despite or maybe even because of something viewed as a fault. Driving around a track slowly in a brz is probably more fun that going around quickly in a mustang. I'm okay with that but I understand that the brz does is slowly. Much more livable than my much loved miata and much more engaging than the performance-per-price mustang. I will still complain about it a lot here but it is good enough to be my first and probably last new car purchase.

[paulca]

I used to work for a company that sold (or practically gave away) software at a loss because it was Niche and Unique. They stood by it, not because it made them a lot of money directly, but because it differentiated them from the 20-30 other companies in the market. They had something interesting to talk about.

I think Toyota just wanted to remind people that they do make some really nice driver focused, but not OTT supercar sports cars for the enthusiast. Supra, MR2, Celica GT4, GT2000, etc. Especially when with ZZZZzzzzzz hybrids and training-coffin-on-wheels Yaris the average age of a Toyota owner in recent years must be over 50! The GT86/Sion FRs et. al. should lower that average age nicely.

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

He was talking about his 2014 GT which would have been easily over 30k new. The ecoboost is nice, but add the performance package and you're looking at a 28k car with no other options.

The FRS seats are not roomy, but they get the job done. I don't normally carry +2 passengers, but I like having the option in a pinch. I've owned 2 seater cars before and would never do it again for a DD. If you normally carry more than one passenger the Mustang wouldn't be a great choice either.

The value that comes with the Mustang is undeniable, there is a reason it has lasted for so many decades. It offers a great amount of power for the price, but it is also marketed to the average American, so there is an obvious emphasis on comfort. The FRS on the other hand looks horrible on paper, which is why I think so many people love to argue about the car. Once you get in the car though, you understand what makes it different from a Genesis, Mustang, Challenger, or Camaro. It's the low seating position, the nimble steering, the high redline, and everything else that makes this car so special. It's not perfect, it's not for everyone, and it's not going to win any drag races, but there isn't another car for under 30k new that I would rather own.

The FRS will never sell in numbers like the Mustang or Camaro, no matter what Toyota does to it. Even if they added more power, people would still complain that it's slower than other cars. There are also too many compromises that the average driver wouldn't be willing to make. It's too low, the seats are too tight, the ride is too firm, and there isn't nearly enough sound deadening. This car was made for a certain kind of enthusiast, and because of that a lot of people will never understand why some people love the 86 so much.

Well put. A lot of the things that I love about the FR-S are things that many buyers dislike. I love that it is considerably smaller than a Mustang. I'm 5'8" and 155lbs. I'm a small guy and the car fits ME great. If Toyota and Subaru really wanted to sell more cars, they'd have to make it bigger. Most people think small is unsafe. Small is hard to get into. Small doesn't fit large guys/gals as well. Well, there is a well established line of Mustangs and Camaros with 4s, 6s, 8s, supercharged 8s and trim packages out the rear for those folks. They'll probably have an AWD option at some point in the future if you look at the trend of what most people want.


Sent from Tandy 400

[paulca]

Just remember when it comes to cars you guys in the states drive super-sized barges compared to most of the rest of the world.

When you see a Mustang driving down one of our streets in Belfast is looks like a cartoon it's that big.

Most of the cars on our roads here (like 99% of them) you would class as compact or sub-compact. We call them "family cars" and "hatchbacks".

Biggest popular cars here, that look more like America cars are 4x4s (SUVs) like the BMW X5 et al.

[Braces]

I believe other members (Strat et al) have pointed out that usually ... the 1st model is the BEST. If the model proceeds forward .... usually power is added. With that added power .... EVERYTHING needs to be upgraded which leads to more weight and girth. Then you'll need more nannie involvement to handle the extra power, weight. Pretty soon .... the original design is no longer there. I.e. Imagine a Lotus Exige getting bigger and heavier.

Now .... the exotic super car market can easily add more power .... because they can offset the heavier motor with exotic lightweight materials(titianium, carbon fiber tubs, carbon ceramic brakes, aluminum, etc. etc.).

A 25K Scion/BRZ is not going to be in the same market to get a carbon fiber tub, etc.

Therefore ... it is what it is. It never pretended to be anything but what it is. An affordable, lightweight, rear driver, moderate power, and great gas mileage car.

Toyota should be commended for bringing this car to market.

[airjonny]

It is a breath of fresh air for cars like the BRZ and Miata to bring lightweight cars to the market. I just hope that Toyobaru dont neglect this car because it has alot going for it.

[NOHOME]

Originally Posted by SlowButFun

1- it's not powerful enough to hang with many cars costing about the same price (or less), and that it doesn't even garner a recommended rating from Consumer Reports due to poor reliability.

2-I owned an FR-S. I took a bath on it when I traded it I for a vehicle that didn't cost significantly more despite being many levels better in terms of performance, power and even refinement and utility.

3-The reason I weighed in on why sales of the Twins are tumbling is because it puzzles me that Toyota & Subaru won't do the one, easy, inexpensive thing that the Twins ABSOLUTELY SHOUT OUT FOR, and would probably double their sales: Add 40 to 50 horsepower & approximately 40 lbs feet of torque.

54-The one really bad move was sourcing the boxer motor from Subaru. It's not as if Toyota doesn't have way more technical expertise designing & building engines vs Subaru.

From what I can tell, the only issue is that you bought the wrong car for you.

Item #1-The Freudian use of "Hang with" in relation to a peer group, tells me that you have issues with how others perceive your masculinity. The FRS is certainly not a penis pump and if you bought it under that expectation, you made a mistake.

Item #2 -So you have lots of money and make bad financial decisions. Not the car's fault. Wish I had your money to burn. I am more of a "Make your bed and sleep in it" kind of person.

Item #3 -If you cant follow the chain of reason how 50 extra horses would make for a smaller market for this car, then you obviously know very little about automotive project costing and how the market was defined by Toyota and Subaru. Had 50 extra HP been a requirement at the start of the project, the trickle down cost in design,reliability testing, manufacturing, sales cost, insurance, and cost to operate would actually make for a smaller market size, NOT larger. Trust me, a lot of thought was put into this by people who know what they are doing.

Item #4 -I fully agree. Subaru flat 4's are not something I will ever come to like. I also wont be buying Subarus in the future.

[tennisfreak]

Wow some people are really getting their panties in a wad about this.

Can some of you not understand that our car truly is a niche car and when practically compared to other cars, in same price range and/or class, has some negatives the mass market will not accept?

Yes our cars are great and pretty darn close to exactly what we want, but we are the very niche market the article is talking about.

Every single person that I have driven in my car has said "Damn this thing is noisy".
Does it bother me? No
But it is one of many reasons why this car does not have a broader appeal and sales will continue to die. The buyers like you and myself that want this car already have it.

Now Toyota and Subaru need to ask "What does this car need to make people want it?". A lot of reviews have already given them a pretty damn good idea. Freaking Japanese are stubborn, though.
So they either built the car with a one and done in mind or are too stubborn to accept the cars shortcomings and fix it. Dont try to tell people what they want, build them what they ask for.

What is surprising and disappointing is that to date it appears that Toyota and Subaru dont have any long term plans for this car.
Have not stated anything to address the things that would give this car a broader appeal.
Sure we dont want them to ruin the car but why the hell cant they come out with different models or trims that offer some of the things mass market buyers would want?

[UtahSleeper]

Hasn't history already taught us that the sales were going to plunge?

They tailored this car for a specific market. This is not a Mustang killer. Also not trying to fight Lotus either. This was built for the people that loved the AE86, which was a gutless wonder econo box. Did that stop people from enjoying it? NO!! And the same could be said for this car. Its a gutless wonder compared to other cars with "similar" attributes, but still cheap and fun to drive by todays standards.

[Zanwald]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

Wow some people are really getting their panties in a wad about this.

Can some of you not understand that our car truly is a niche car and when practically compared to other cars, in same price range and/or class, has some negatives the mass market will not accept?

Yes our cars are great and pretty darn close to exactly what we want, but we are the very niche market the article is talking about.

Every single person that I have driven in my car has said "Damn this thing is noisy".
Does it bother me? No
But it is one of many reasons why this car does not have a broader appeal and sales will continue to die. The buyers like you and myself that want this car already have it.

Now Toyota and Subaru need to ask "What does this car need to make people want it?". A lot of reviews have already given them a pretty damn good idea. Freaking Japanese are stubborn, though.
So they either built the car with a one and done in mind or are too stubborn to accept the cars shortcomings and fix it. Dont try to tell people what they want, build them what they ask for.

What is surprising and disappointing is that to date it appears that Toyota and Subaru dont have any long term plans for this car.
Have not stated anything to address the things that would give this car a broader appeal.
Sure we dont want them to ruin the car but why the hell cant they come out with different models or trims that offer some of the things mass market buyers would want?

There's nothing else they can do with it. People forget that the soul purpose of the car's price point is to be a base that buyers can build on themselves but also be an affordable sports car in it's own right.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

...Can some of you not understand that our car truly is a niche car and when practically compared to other cars, in same price range and/or class, has some negatives the mass market will not accept?

Yes, some of us can, and some of us also understand that applies to any car in any price range, depending on the buyer.

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

...Every single person that I have driven in my car has said "Damn this thing is noisy".

I admit I do not understand this one. I don't find the car noisy at all, and have never had anyone tell me that. In fact, I find it quieter than most cars I've owned in the past. No, its not as quiet as a rolling sofa luxury car, but I wouldn't expect it to be.

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

...What is surprising and disappointing is that to date it appears that Toyota and Subaru dont have any long term plans for this car.

Agreed, and they have done only minimal advertising for the car, also pointed towards them not having any desire to sell it in significant numbers.

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

...Sure we dont want them to ruin the car but why the hell cant they come out with different models or trims that offer some of the things mass market buyers would want?

They could, and that would drive the price up for EVERY trim, putting the car into the price range of even more cars that are "superior" and therefore driving down demand, as others have pointed out.

[PhantomX]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

Sure we dont want them to ruin the car but why the hell cant they come out with different models or trims that offer some of the things mass market buyers would want?

Because Scion's monospec model prevents the brand to have multiple trim levels/grades for their models. As I said before, there's the "base" and there's the limited "special editions" (10 Series, Monogram Series, Release Series).

What is Monospec?

"Monospec" means that there is just one standard trim level available. No "Grades". No "Packages". Every Scion arrives complete with a generous monospec. You only need to choose color and transmission, along with any style, comfort or performance accessories you wish to add.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

Can some of you not understand that our car truly is a niche car and when practically compared to other cars, in same price range and/or class, has some negatives the mass market will not accept?

Now Toyota and Subaru need to ask "What does this car need to make people want it?". A lot of reviews have already given them a pretty damn good idea. Freaking Japanese are stubborn, though.
So they either built the car with a one and done in mind or are too stubborn to accept the cars shortcomings and fix it. Dont try to tell people what they want, build them what they ask for.

Yep it is that time again!

Just going to keep this and drop it every time that sort of statement comes out!

Tada:
“We visited with car enthusiasts in Japan, America and Europe. The feedback we received was almost always the same. They said there are a lot of sports cars with high horsepower that are very fast, but these are not the sports cars that they want to have. They want small compact cars that are controllable, that they can tune themselves. However, that kind of sports car is not on the market. Therefore, these sports car enthusiasts are forced to continue to use older cars from a long time ago, because there is no new alterative on the market.”


“We also went to competitors and asked them: “Why do you focus on fast cars?” The response almost always was: ‘Actually, we really don’t want to develop these kinds of cars. But once we bring a plan to develop that car to our board, the first question the directors of the company would ask is: How much faster is that car compared to what the competition has? How many seconds faster around the Nürburgring? What about the acceleration? These questions always come up because numerical performance is the easiest to understand.


It is impossible to develop a sports car that appeals to everybody. If you try to please everybody, the car would be half-baked for everybody, and not particularly good for anybody. This car is not developed by a committee, or by consensus.”



“When we first presented this idea to our advertising people, they were drastically opposed to this idea. They complained that the car doesn’t have a particularly fast time on the circuit, it does not use any new technology. They also could not think of a catchy headline for the catalogue.”

[paulca]

Originally Posted by NOHOME

Item #4 -I fully agree. Subaru flat 4's are not something I will ever come to like. I also wont be buying Subarus in the future.

Boxer allows for a much lower center of gravity which allows more freedom in the suspension set up, lower driving position, etc. etc.