Why Scion FR-S Sales Have Plunged

[Drewfellas]

i purchased this car knowing it wasn't fast but for lineage it came from. this car will still be hitting the streets 25+ years from now. I just look at my buddy's 91 mr2. Homeboy just got a paint job at Maaco.....FHL

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

That guy is also a salesman, not a decision maker for Toyota corporate and he was not definitive either (and if it's the one I remember his knowledge is laughable, check out the FRS on Leno's car show on youtube, I hate the phrase but I cringed hard watching him flounder to promote his own product effectively). I spend an unhealthy amount on here too and I have yet to see confirmation, feel free to link all 3+ of your sources, I bet I read them too. I'm not saying it will be dead next year, to the contrary I think they'll be shipping them over for at least 2 more years and wouldn't be surprised if we're seeing FR-S arriving on our shores through 2018, a true second generation however is rumors at best.

And...This, This, And This^^^^^^^^

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

Honestly, in order to appeal to the mass market I think Toyota should have made a convertible version. Go after the very large segment of Miata and S2000 buyers who bought them simply because it's a sporty roadster. The people who don't care how the car performs on the track, but just want something that is small, looks good, and has a roof that folds down. They won't complain about power because.. well, they're the sort of people who would buy a Miata or S2000. And nobody expects a convertible to have a ton of room in the back seats.

A great example of this consumer is my boss's wife, who loves the way the Toyobaru looks but wants a convertible. I think there are plenty of people like this out there, and Toyota could score some decent sales by appeasing them.

(I do NOT think more power is the answer to greater sales)

Wanna know how I know you've never driven an S2000?

:P

[pushrod]

Let the sales slide. Makes it all the more special when I roll up in mine.

FR-S: Front-engine Rare Sportscar

[xuimod]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Like the automotive business it takes years to react to the market! The plan was set a long time ago and like I said very clearly it would take massive numbers one way or the other to change that plan.
I have no idea which way they are going and didn't say I did.
Your "guess" is pure speculation (unless of course your credentials include a high enough position with one of the involved companies).
My statement of "it is planned already" is made through over 30 years in the auto industry and is not a "guess" at either direction they may take!

Really? It takes years to react to the market? Maybe on the production side but not on the management side.

FR-S/BRZ production has a certain capacity. If sales were at the point that the factories were at full capacity for months then management would decide to invest more in the car.

But if production was at significantly less than capacity, then management would decide to scale back investments or maybe even kill the car line all together.

Its stupid to suggest for any car company would have a plan set in stone before the car is even available for sale. 30 years in the industry and you think car companies are that stupid? Its all about being flexible, being open to possibilities, good or bad.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by xuimod

Really? It takes years to react to the market? .

Yes, it does. Let's take an extreme example, the Pontiac Aztec. GM needed to sell over 60,000 of them a year (by their numbers) for it to be profitable (which by the way means recovering all development/production/sales costs). It never sold more than about 27,000 units a year yet they still sold it for 6 model years.


I'm pretty sure they knew right away it was a dud but hope springs eternal but marketing plans die even harder when there is this much money at stake.


Sales numbers from Wikipedia, the source of all Internet truth (or truthish)


Calendar yearTotal American sales
2000 11,201
2001 27,322
2002 27,793
2003 27,354
2004 20,588
2005 5,020
2006 347
2007 69

As a postscript, I suppose this really means they only built the car through 2004. I would imagine the 05-07 sales were inventory clearance. Also, if I remember correctly they did some sort of change to the front to try and "soften" it.

[torqdork]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

That guy is also a salesman, not a decision maker for Toyota corporate and he was not definitive either (and if it's the one I remember his knowledge is laughable, check out the FRS on Leno's car show on youtube, I hate the phrase but I cringed hard watching him flounder to promote his own product effectively). I spend an unhealthy amount on here too and I have yet to see confirmation, feel free to link all 3+ of your sources, I bet I read them too. I'm not saying it will be dead next year, to the contrary I think they'll be shipping them over for at least 2 more years and wouldn't be surprised if we're seeing FR-S arriving on our shores through 2018, a true second generation however is rumors at best.

The guy doing the FR-S interview on Leno's Garage was Jack Hollis, VP and General Manager of Scion.

Now, you'd think someone with that title would know what they're talking about but like you, I was shocked at how ignorant Hollis was about his halo car. All I could imagine is that Hollis is hoping to be promoted out of Scion back to the fast-track Toyota side since that's the way Lentz made it to CEO after all.

In my ongoing experience talking with other senior Toyota and Scion execs on the marketing, sales, service, parts and dealer relations side, and I don't mean this necessarily disparagingly since they're almost all bean counters, future product knowledge doesn't seem to be as big an interest as current sales, profits and market share.

[xuimod]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Yes, it does. Let's take an extreme example, the Pontiac Aztec. GM needed to sell over 60,000 of them a year (by their numbers) for it to be profitable (which by the way means recovering all development/production/sales costs). It never sold more than about 27,000 units a year yet they still sold it for 6 model years.


I'm pretty sure they knew right away it was a dud but hope springs eternal but marketing plans die even harder when there is this much money at stake.


Sales numbers from Wikipedia, the source of all Internet truth (or truthish)


Calendar yearTotal American sales
2000 11,201
2001 27,322
2002 27,793
2003 27,354
2004 20,588
2005 5,020
2006 347
2007 69

And that's why GM needed a government bailout, because their executives sucked.

Btw, you took my statement a little bit out of context. I said "It takes years to react to the market? Maybe on the production side but not on the management side."

Management usually makes decisions fairly quickly. But getting the whole company on the same page takes months or years.

[UtahSleeper]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I cannot fathom how you 'don't count' the money out of your pocket to purchase the car, I wish I could live in a land where sales tax was irrelevant to my budget. Aside from that I managed to avoid all dealers fees and pick up a $500 incentive, a base car 2 years ago was about $28.3k out the door at MSRP in California (give or take a couple bucks based on region).

I never count it cause new and used cars have it. It's the dealers, not the car manufacturters. Plus, they have wiggle room with it lol. When I got my car, I knew they would have to lower the fees or price of the car. I didn't care which one, I just knew what I wanted to pay.

But buying used gives more wiggle, and knowing when to buy.

[rice_classic]

Refresh!

Who cares if the sales slide the only thing that matters is that they still continue to sell it. Mazda never gave up on the Miata and those sales have been dismal for years but it maintains an image, the car is marketing. Having the FRS sitting on the lot, having it available is marketing. What I'm trying to say is that it's impact is greater than just the ROI of it's sales. Its existence can facilitate a levity in the sales of the brand.

However, I don't know how to quantify that.

[LucidMomentum]

Slow, if I wanted a Mustang I would've bought one. Why do you keep coming to the FR-S forums looking to start an argument? I have no issues with the FR-S as a daily driver, and I work in the Oil fields.

I've had no trouble with it on long drives either. I love the way it sounds and feels on the road. I'll admit the seatbelt qualm is true, but for 40$ I fixed that with pads.

As for reliability, I've seen more posts here of people enjoying their vehicles than complaining about it not running. But you may argue that this is an enthusiast's forum and we may be biased.

However, none of that helps me understand why you can't seem to stop posting here about how horrible the car so many of us here enjoy ?

[PhantomX]

Originally Posted by SlowButFun

Nearly everyone DESPISES me here because I'm honest to a fault

1: No one despises you. We just think you're a troll that probably got bored with the lack of activity in the Mustang forums.
2: Honest? I guess you are when it comes to your personal opinions, but who isn't? And if you try to throw out that you're citing "facts," I'm sorry, but biased articles/reviews don't necessarily count as facts.

[Cliu91]

Originally Posted by SlowButFun

Nearly everyone DESPISES me here because I'm honest to a fault, but I refuse to lie and not call a spade a spade: The FR-S is an AWFUL daily driver, and that punishment doesn't yield enough power & reward even on the very few track days the car will see (by the very few who will track it).

This is TRUTH as much as it hurts the non-objective:

"A Mustang GT can make the FR-S a small speck in the mirror and keep it there, whether the road is straight or twisty. A Mustang V6 Premium is priced right on top of the FR-S and will whip it, good. Any multitude of ratty used performance cars are truly vehicular methamphetamine capable of deeply embarrassing the guy bringing his $30,000 Scion to track day."

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...14-scion-fr-s/

Can't hang with ANY Mustang.

Maybe it can hang with a Scion TC? In some ways, barely:

"That brings us full circle to the tCs fiercest competitor: its stable mate the FR-S. No matter how you slice it, the tC isn’t as good-looking. It may seat four with relative ease, but the interior isn’t as nice as the FR-S either. It delivers good fuel economy and is plenty of fun on the road, but the appeal of the tC is more pragmatic than emotional. Still, when the numbers are added up the tC delivers 75% of the FR-S’ looks, 85% of the handling and 90% of the performance for 78% of the price. Being the deal hound I am, that makes the tC the better Scion."

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/8-...ison-fr-s.html

And don't dare challenge a Renault Megane, either:


But at least it's a reasonably comfortable, refined driving car. Wait, oops:

"No car is the best car for every situation. The Scion was borderline awful on I75 the previous day, assaulting my ears with tire roar and the rest of me with incessant jiggling. “Steel drum,” I note. My ass grows sore within an hour. The seatbelt cuts into my neck each time I forget to fasten the retaining strap to the left of the headrest. Due to the small windows and lack of a sunroof option, the dark, plasticky interior has the ambiance of a cave, albeit one with red stitching. The needle of the analog speedometer starts off at four o’clock, and even at highway speeds is still pointing towards my left knee. It’s nearly useless, so luckily there’s a digital speedometer in the tach face. One wonders why they didn’t follow Mazda’s example with the RX-8 and drop the analog dial altogether. These endlessly straight highways are not the ideal habitat for an FR-S. Anyone who’ll regularly be driving them is well advised to buy something cushier. Aside from minimal sound insulation and an unyielding suspension, the FR-S includes little beyond the most basic features. There aren’t even audio controls on the steering wheel. Then again, the problem with the audio system’s buttons isn’t that they’re hard to reach. They’re close at hand, but feel cheap and defy logic."

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...06-mazda-rx-8/


But at least it's reliable. Oops. Nope:

"When the car’s owner put the pictures up, noting that he had been in the car when the motor blew and that nothing unusual was happening at the time, he started hearing from other Toyobaru owners and tuners that they’d seen similar issues, often starting with a valvetrain failure. In the case of this particular car, the piston was “in a thousand pieces”, so it’s hard to tell if a valve dropped into it or not.

The engine’s being dissected as we speak for root-cause analysis, but I wasn’t cheered by the number of people who immediately stepped forward to talk about similar issues. As we stood by the smoking car after the failure, the owner started running down all the different ways in which these cars are known to blow up on-track. Apparently, the injector seals wear out, at which point the cylinder “leans” and the motor blows. Or they can have oil pressure issues. And so on.

This is a big deal because much of the GT86’s appeal is based on the idea that you can enjoy it on-track for a long time with low to no running cost."

http://jackbaruth.com/?p=942

You really like stirring shit for your own enjoyment eh?

Get your hand off your **** and stop jerking yourself off to pissing people off on this forum. Take a moment, stop, breath, and remember that you are on the FRS/BRZ forums saying how shitty the car is, of course your opinion is despised.

I don't care how much you've "googled" and "researched" about the car, you are not going to convince many people that this car is awful. Won't happen.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by SlowButFun

Nearly everyone DESPISES me here because I'm honest to a fault, but I refuse to lie and not call a spade a spade:

Actually we despise you because you seem to be incredibly insecure about your choice of car.

Your "facts" (when they are facts) aren't wrong but your attitude is obnoxious at best.

Edit: And try posting from a reputable source instead of blogs run by people with chips on their shoulders and attention grabbing headlines.

Road & Track:

Should we be surprised that for $26,000, the BRZ isn't perfect? Of course not. The car is perfect where it counts. It just takes a certain kind of person to get it.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...u-brz-wrap-up/

MotorTrend:

Drivers from all skill levels can enjoy the BRZ, as is evident by Pobst's stamp of approval: "An extremely enjoyable and satisfying driver's car."

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz3Q5Iiz9oL

Car and Driver

The FR-S is just a bowl of ice cream with a stick shift. No car since the original Mazda Miata has made an empty cloverleaf as enjoyable or an end-run around loafing traffic as fun.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...on-fr-s-page-2

Oh and worth mentioning:

"When spurring the Mustang, you end up waiting for your commands to be translated into actions. There's just a ton of roll. And against the likes of BRZ, FR-S, and Miata, it feels less engaging and, ultimately, fat."

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz3Q5IGloEI