Switched from RCE Yellows to Bilstein B8/RCE Tarmac Springs

[BrandonB]

Do you think the bilsteins would work with rce yellow to give a better ride or is best to get the Tarmac?


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[was385]

Originally Posted by JesseE

Having your alignment set with toe out for small track/auto x is fine... But people should not be running toe out on street cars that see highway speeds, High speed stability greatly suffers with toe out.

I have always preferred 0 toe all 4 corners in all my cars.

I have absolutely no problems with stability at highway speeds with 1/16 toe out on each side up front and 1/16 toe in each side at the rear. That's many, many thousand miles so far through many different conditions. It's definitely a personal preference for feel but a safety issue on the highway, I completely disagree with that.

[was385]

Originally Posted by BrandonB

Do you think the bilsteins would work with rce yellow to give a better ride or is best to get the Tarmac?


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Can't imagine it would be a huge difference but I don't have first hand experience. Tarmacs were designed for aftermarket dampers though so I wanted to do it right from the get-go and make the switch.

[was385]

Originally Posted by Ubersuber

Actually, the B6 (HD) Bilsteins transform the handling of the stock springs and roll bars. Unless you just have to lower the car just get a set of Bilstein B6 (HD in America) and the car is just about perfect.

The stock rear bump stops are too long. I cut mine down by 1/2 inch but I'm looking into getting a pair of TRD rear bump stops they supply with their lowering springs. Hard to tell from photos but they look about perfect to eliminate (or at least reduce) that pogo effect from the rear springs.

I'm sure the B6 seriously improves the performance of the stock springs and is probably a great option for staying in a stock class. For STX, I seriously doubt it would be as good as going the full way all things being equal.

[Gliderx]

Sooooo are you going to sell your yellows?? I'm in the market for them haha

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by was385

My plan was to write an autocross-specific review quite a bit earlier but I didn't feel it would be a fair review after my first even with them a couple of weeks ago. Despite feeling better, my times were just a bit off the pace of the guys I normally go head-to-head with and I just didn't have the grip that I was used to or expected. I drove away from the event hoping that the Bilsteins breaking in some more would give me the performance I had hoped for.

Today I was finally able to get that second event in with the Bilsteins/Tarmacs and I can absolutely say that the Bilsteins need to break in before you see anything close to their full potential. After finishing 4th out of 4 in STX the first time (0.5 seconds from 3rd and 33rd in PAX), I took 1st in STX by almost 0.5 seconds and a top ten PAX finish (still waiting on the official PAX standings). The suspension is quite a bit softer now and really allowed the tires to work, resulting in far more grip than the first time. I'm a fairly aggressive driver and the higher front spring rates were able to respond when I threw the car into corners. With RCE camber plates (-3 degrees) and a strano front sway, the car has become incredibly neutral with the ability to rotate the car exactly as much as I want with very small throttle inputs while cornering.

It took some patience but the Bilsteins/Tarmacs are exactly what I hoped for when I bought them. They're a great autox/street setup for the money and miles ahead of the low-end coilover options I've ridden on in the same price range. If this experience has taught me anything, it's that stiff doesn't mean fast, which IMO is generally how these cheaper options are judged by people who buy them. At just north of $1000, you're going to have to make some pretty big sacrifices on any suspension setup. I decided to forego adjustability (height and damping) for performance and quality. Anyone who says you can get everything at that price point is probably trying to sell you something or doesn't really know what they're talking about. And as a bonus to everything, now that they've broken in they're a little bit softer around town (though still not as comfortable as stock or RCE yellows), but much more comfortable on the highway. There's a pretty substantial bump on my way home from work, where I used to have to slow down to 40 mph for and still winced before going over and now I can go over at 60 fairly comfortably. The damping on high speed bumps and ruts is miles ahead of everything else I've had on the car.

If you have any questions, I'd be more than happy to try to answer them.

Awesome to read this! Glad the springs are working well for you.

Originally Posted by Ubersuber

Actually, the B6 (HD) Bilsteins transform the handling of the stock springs and roll bars. Unless you just have to lower the car just get a set of Bilstein B6 (HD in America) and the car is just about perfect.

The stock rear bump stops are too long. I cut mine down by 1/2 inch but I'm looking into getting a pair of TRD rear bump stops they supply with their lowering springs. Hard to tell from photos but they look about perfect to eliminate (or at least reduce) that pogo effect from the rear springs.

The Bilsteins are quite good and do transform the car. However, for a user that is competing in STX class auto-x with stickier than stock tires, stiffer springs are a necessity.

We include replacement bumpstops with all of our springs. Our RCE Tarmac springs are very much "performance first" with a mild drop, included replacement bumpstops, and a sizable increase in spring rate. Still not as firm as most coilovers, but a good easy solution when paired with Bilsteins.

Our RCE Yellows are similar, but a small step softer.

- Andy

[SomeoneWhoIsntMe]

Originally Posted by mike156

You guys should do some more research before you post "information." It took about 5 minutes on the phone with Bilstein to get this information.

Here are the specs for the B6 and B8.

Front (B6/B8)
Length [Extended] - 18.95/18.17
Length [Collapsed] - 15.9/15.9
Valving [Rebound] - 179/179
Valving [Comp] - 116/116


Rear (B6/B8)
Length [Extended] - 15.45/14.66
Length [Collapsed] - 10.7/10.7
Valving [Rebound] - 141/141
Valving [Comp] - 70/70


The ONLY difference in specs is the extended length. Now, there could be differences in the valving curves at the low end but they end up at the same place at the high end where they take the specification from....but I doubt it.

If you are using springs that are wound to stay captive on the stock struts, IMO there is no reason to get the B8s over the B6s as they will simply reduce droop travel. If you are using springs that rattle around on stock struts...well, they are probably crappy springs and you should get different springs? Point is, the B8s absolutely do not increase compression travel and any spring that's a bad idea on a stock length strut is still a bad idea on the B8s.

cliffs notes: B8's are pretty pointless, for RCE tarmacs you may as well get B6's and enjoy the extra droop.

[Ubersuber]

I realize I was thread jacking a tiny bit but I have a point.

Unless you really want or need to lower your BRZ/FRS then swapping in a set of B6 Bilsteins is something you should try before you decide to go any further. I'll go so far as to say that the car should come with this specification of damper from the factory and I suspect the 2015 will, rumoured to now be equipped with Sachs dampers another top name in the industry.

The fact that the B6 also works with stiffer, shorter springs means you lose nothing by fitting them before changing the springs, except for the labour of dismantling and reassembling each factory strut or coilover. If you know you want a lower car or stiffer springs then by all means buy the coilover kit you want and save that small labour charge.

For high speed driving on regular roads the stock springs seem pretty much perfect. The valving of a shock is pretty much constant over the stroke of the unit. The variation in shock rate (the clever bit) over sharp bumps is more a factor of the rate of change in stroke, i.e. the speed of the suspension rise and fall, and that control is independent of the start position of the shock. The stock shocks work fine over the large amplitude deflections and in steady state cornering. Bilsteins earn their keep over sharp bumps and during quick transitions which the stock dampers do not handle well at all.

I'm not a big fan of the roll oversteer you can provoke in rapid and sharp transitions but I think fitting the shorter bump stops to the rear dampers and using the stock length springs will reduce that unfortunate tendency. No doubt the engineers wanted to allow for low powered drifting by fitting long and fairly stiff rear bump stops, for fast driving that characteristic is a nuisance especially in the wet and pretty much hopeless on snow or ice. It'll be interesting to see whether my cutting the rear bump stops and fitting Bilsteins will improve the snow and ice handling by keeping a firmer hold on the road and changing the point in roll where the bump stops increase the spring rate quite rapidly.

I note that TRD lowering springs come with a shorter bump stop, as you might expect. They say they are progressive rate springs which also reduces the desirability of long bump stops. I'm interested to find out if these are available as separate parts and if so intend to try them on my stock rear spring units, provided they are not too short. They should be 1/2 to 1 inch shorter than stock which is about the additional travel of the rear damper I'm looking for to allow more body roll before the bump stop engages. Anyone adding a lot of bhp to their BRZ should consider reducing rear roll stiffness (relative to the front, i.e. increase front roll bar size) to ensure the power can be put down on exit.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by SomeoneWhoIsntMe

cliffs notes: B8's are pretty pointless, for RCE tarmacs you may as well get B6's and enjoy the extra droop.

The one thing that is not in there is the length of the bumpstop inside the inverted front Bilstein strut. I suspect it's quite a bit shorter on the B8 than the B6.

It still is silly that the B8's cut out some droop.

- Andy

[SomeoneWhoIsntMe]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

The one thing that is not in there is the length of the bumpstop inside the inverted front Bilstein strut. I suspect it's quite a bit shorter on the B8 than the B6.

It still is silly that the B8's cut out some droop.

- Andy

It's not that hard to pop those open and trim the bumpstops inside the inverted housing, is it?

[was385]

Originally Posted by SomeoneWhoIsntMe

It's not that hard to pop those open and trim the bumpstops inside the inverted housing, is it?

I definitely wouldn't just be popping open my shocks to trim any bumpstops. Anyone else is more than welcome to take that job on for their own dampers though.

[was385]

Originally Posted by Ubersuber

I realize I was thread jacking a tiny bit but I have a point.

Unless you really want or need to lower your BRZ/FRS then swapping in a set of B6 Bilsteins is something you should try before you decide to go any further. I'll go so far as to say that the car should come with this specification of damper from the factory and I suspect the 2015 will, rumoured to now be equipped with Sachs dampers another top name in the industry.

The fact that the B6 also works with stiffer, shorter springs means you lose nothing by fitting them before changing the springs, except for the labour of dismantling and reassembling each factory strut or coilover. If you know you want a lower car or stiffer springs then by all means buy the coilover kit you want and save that small labour charge.

For high speed driving on regular roads the stock springs seem pretty much perfect. The valving of a shock is pretty much constant over the stroke of the unit. The variation in shock rate (the clever bit) over sharp bumps is more a factor of the rate of change in stroke, i.e. the speed of the suspension rise and fall, and that control is independent of the start position of the shock. The stock shocks work fine over the large amplitude deflections and in steady state cornering. Bilsteins earn their keep over sharp bumps and during quick transitions which the stock dampers do not handle well at all.

I'm not a big fan of the roll oversteer you can provoke in rapid and sharp transitions but I think fitting the shorter bump stops to the rear dampers and using the stock length springs will reduce that unfortunate tendency. No doubt the engineers wanted to allow for low powered drifting by fitting long and fairly stiff rear bump stops, for fast driving that characteristic is a nuisance especially in the wet and pretty much hopeless on snow or ice. It'll be interesting to see whether my cutting the rear bump stops and fitting Bilsteins will improve the snow and ice handling by keeping a firmer hold on the road and changing the point in roll where the bump stops increase the spring rate quite rapidly.

I note that TRD lowering springs come with a shorter bump stop, as you might expect. They say they are progressive rate springs which also reduces the desirability of long bump stops. I'm interested to find out if these are available as separate parts and if so intend to try them on my stock rear spring units, provided they are not too short. They should be 1/2 to 1 inch shorter than stock which is about the additional travel of the rear damper I'm looking for to allow more body roll before the bump stop engages. Anyone adding a lot of bhp to their BRZ should consider reducing rear roll stiffness (relative to the front, i.e. increase front roll bar size) to ensure the power can be put down on exit.

Again, I'm sure that's a perfectly fine setup for many applications but I think we probably have two pretty different goals for the car. I run 245 ZIIs and am focused on autox more than anything. I just don't think the stock springs would cut it for what I need, even if they may be perfectly suited for spirited road driving. I'm glad that they work for what you're doing though and you're right that people need to look at what they need honestly before purchasing something.

[sluflyer06]

Originally Posted by JesseE

Having your alignment set with toe out for small track/auto x is fine... But people should not be running toe out on street cars that see highway speeds, High speed stability greatly suffers with toe out.

I have always preferred 0 toe all 4 corners in all my cars.

I couldn't agree less, I'm running toe out up front on car and was expecting to find high speed wandering, etc. But zero instability or wandering at highway speeds and higher.

[SomeoneWhoIsntMe]

Originally Posted by was385

I definitely wouldn't just be popping open my shocks to trim any bumpstops. Anyone else is more than welcome to take that job on for their own dampers though.

you're not opening the strut it's self, just an outer casing that they put over the strut shaft so it can bolt to the knuckle and be inverted.