100% DI Failure with Nurburgring rentals

[denkigrve]

Originally Posted by bestwheelbase

Clearly this is in the very early stages of gathering information and sharing knowledge. Lets withhold judgment until more time passes, more instances are investigated, and we begin to see a clearer picture of what we're facing.

lol, basically what I said, but it much more concise words. /fistbump

[Bigmaxy]

I do feel the experience of the rental car people is quite telling and may potentially demonstrate a problem that will exist given similar conditions.

We all know the twins are not exactly over powered. To get the most out of them requires quite a lot of revs. If a customer is using this car on the track and they do not own it, I imagine it would be hitting the rev limiter a whole bunch and the shifts would be very aggressive with the occasional missed down shift.
I think the main factor here is that they are rental cars, they are more than likely very well serviced but don't have very sympathetic drivers. they are driven very very hard.
I would have expected the cars that are owner driven and tracked would not be bouncing off the limiter quite as much and more consideration would be made in relation to mechanical sympathy. (I could be wrong)

The majority of owners will probably never have this problem for the life of the vehicle so the sky is definitely not falling, but given the right conditions, conditions that this car should have been designed to handle, a problem with the DI seals can exist and Toyota/Subaru will need to take responsibility. Hopefully this is simply an ECU update/reflash.

[Carwhisperer]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

How is this failure about mileage? If the car is used for extreme track duty, it will see conditions that would never be duplicated on the street. Like a rental race car would see.. These extreme conditions that caused the failure will never be introduced to the 95% of the cars out there that drive the streets or track occasionally. So mileage isnt going to affect anything if the paramaters that cause the failures are not attainable under more normal conditions. You somehow are assuming that damage is occurring all the time to the engine and at a certain mileage it will sieze up and we will all be killed in a firey ball of death. There obviously is an issue with the DI system under certain conditions. it seems most dont have an issue.. Many seem to be having fun at the track too with no issues. Just drive and enjoy the damn thing or buy something else that you wont have to worry about.. like a corolla maybe ..

My own experience Had my 1 DI go out (21k miles) on me a few months ago. They ONLY replaced the bad one that was pulled. 1 month later a different Di went out. So now they replaced them all. I'm expecting another one to flop around 40k or so.

Exactly same issue with my cousin that owns a 86 in my town as well. And yes of course we drive our vehicles "hard" from time to time.. WOT with 160whp should be able to take the "abuse" and not have this issue.

Why make the redline 7400 if the engine compartment cant handle it.

[thill]

Originally Posted by bestwheelbase

Just to be clear so that people reading this in the future will understand my point, I am referring to the standard warranty that comes all new cars. Let's hope it doesn't come to this, but the reality is that getting a manufacturer to warranty a costly item is sometimes quite an unpleasant battle. For this very reason, it is great that we are sharing information. If it turns out to be a minor issue, good. If it turns out to be something more significant, then it will help us all to report these issues and discuss them with one another so that we can be better informed.

Totally agree.

[Pneub]

How much would it cost to replace these if you're out of the warranty or you've thrown your warranty away?

[Carwhisperer]

Originally Posted by Pneub

How much would it cost to replace these if you're out of the warranty or you've thrown your warranty away?

I'll have to check my invoice, total Warrantied work was sitting around 1,000$ for me, but I'm thinking that's on the low side of the $ for 1 DI.

[Pneub]

Originally Posted by Carwhisperer

I'll have to check my invoice, total Warrantied work was sitting around 1,000$ for me, but I'm thinking that's on the low side of the $ for 1 DI.

I imagine if I blew one I would probably replace them all to be safe so I guess I'm curious what that would cost as well

I've had my car for a year and 1 month exactly, granted it's not been on the track or auto x. Basically just sticky tires and a catback for major mods. I have had absolutely no issues with my car except for tail light condensation, and the cricket noise every so often, but when it does make noise its at idle and its barely noticeable. I DD my car and have approx. 16,500 miles on it.

[ft_sjo]

These threads are getting out of hand.

The art of Chinese whispers, eh?

So now chumps are thinking there is a problem with the DI system on our cars. They're even saying that "Toyota D4S suxxxx!!!!". Well done you fucking clowns.

The issue is an ECU calibration problem which has been addressed with cal A01x. Yes detonation can be harmful (in certain circumstances). Yes it can drop the tips off spark plugs. No it's nothing nothing to do with Direct Injection.

And to the guy telling people to raise complaints to instigate a recall, get a fucking grip. Manufacturers respond to failures. If it fails, get it repaired under warranty. If you're scared the manufacturer will deny your claim because you've modified your car, then tough. Shouldn't have modified it (whether it was the cause or not). You knew the risks.

Toyota/Subaru will know a LOT more about this issue than anyone on this forum. They will know exactly what has gone back into dealerships for repair. They will know exactly how widespread the problem is. And they're probably 6 months ahead of you on a fix. The half-a-dozen or so doom-mongers on this website need to get a life and stop being so paranoid.

[Gixxersixxerman]

I do not know how the auto world manufactures test their engines.. Working at Yamaha and Suzuki, I've seen first hand on engine testing.. I got to see first hand testing on the then new R1 engine in early 03, yeah they was testing a year before they came out.. I seen red hot glowing headers from the engines bouncing of redline, at full load for hours, during endurance testing.. I saw the engines that didn't make it, the parts evolution they went through.. I saw them put engines to abuse that we would never do.. I'm sure the same happens in the car world.. As I was told then, if the engine is operating with in the operational limits.. I.e. idle to redline, then it should be able to do it any where within those limits at all times, under all loads, for as long as the operator is asking it to.. As he explained, if an engine can not sustain running at 500 rpm's under its redline for hours, then that redline needs to be lowered until the engine is with in safe operating range..

So our engine should be able to with stand staying at 7k all day everyday, provided sufficient cooling and op temps, with no problems.. And I have to believe Subaru did tests like these.. So maybe they missed the testing with the ethanol fuel we use and that's where the crickets are coming from.. But they had to have tested these engines under extreme stress..

Also DI is nothing "new" diesels have been running it for some time and I know Mazda has been running it since at least the CX-7.. I wonder what they use for seals?? The same type?? Different?? Is it the same injectors?? Could we use those seals and fix the problem??

[ft_sjo]

@Gixxersixxerman The issue is nothing to do with how fast you spin the engine. Yes, Subaru would have done durability testing on the engine. Probably at redline for 4 weeks continuous. That particular test wouldn't exhibit the issue, which is to do with transients, not static testing.

To those paranoid people, just change gear a little slower and you won't have the problem.

The TSB is quite clear. Let me try and dumb it down for folks: "If you change gear faster than ~half a second when you're above 5200rpm and WOT, you may end up with a problem (if you don't upgrade to the cal which fixes it)".

[Slash]

Originally Posted by Gixxersixxerman

Also DI is nothing "new" diesels have been running it for some time and I know Mazda has been running it since at least the CX-7.. I wonder what they use for seals?? The same type?? Different?? Is it the same injectors?? Could we use those seals and fix the problem??

I come from the mazdaspeed 3 world just sold mine for my frs. I'll tell you our injector seals are a huge factory problem too. They sell aftermarket remedies, but a few members found out that 80's era Toyota diesel car engine seals worked better than the aftermarket ones for pennies compared to the aftermarket.


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[Slash]

Oh here, I'll make my post useful.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...d.php?t=119326

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[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

Oh, I forgot about the crickets...

That's surprising..