100% DI Failure with Nurburgring rentals

[campy]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but don't we have many users on this forum who track their cars? For some, it's even their dedicated track car. I would imagine that if this was really so common that everyone who DD's it has to panic, then we would have heard a bit more about this issue already.

I know this has already been argued over, I mean discussed, but I think it's somehow the rental agency's fault. Or, since I'm guessing all 4 cars were ordered/manufactured at the same time, it might have been an isolated issue on the assembly line.

[Captain Insano]

First link is interesting if the voting is accurate (click the "view poll results" link). Lotso votes (18) on their for injector issues besides the rental company being discussed heavily in this thread. There are 7968 views on that thread at the time of this post you are reading. Now 18 isn't that high considering 7968 viewers, but to me the direct injectors on this car don't strike me as super rock solid at this point.

Just observing, but that is a low percentage of overall viewers at less than a percent (0.2% at 18/7968). Add in four more for the rentals and that is still pretty low 22/7972 = 0.275%.... I do wonder if the rental place has something they have done bad with maintenance OR something really simply like they commonly put in 90 octane gas with lots of high RPM runs for example. Not saying any of that is what the cause is. This post of mine is just some very simple math and lots of speculation after my simple math/observations.

And most important, I'm not trivializing this issue. There is nothing worse than buying a new car you love and having bullshit like this happen. So for the posters with cars that have DI problems, I feel for ya. Seriously.

I have an early manufacture date car. I have no issues on this. I've never had a CEL. I also haven't had a chance to track my car (WAY too busy) and have minimal modifications (N1 catback exhaust). I'm not a good example though at only 5300 miles on the odometer.

Originally Posted by track_warrior

If i was you i would punch it and not baby it while its still in warranty. That way if you ever have an issue it will get fixed.

Here is the thread, i encourage everybody that has had this issue to vote.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38397

I suggest you read these 3 threads:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38397
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36129
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37810

[thill]

I love how many of the people in this thread that are bitching don't even own the car.

I drive spiritedly. I am planning to track my car numerous times a year. If there are issues I will be under warranty. If the issue is as prevelant as people claim (100% failure rate with low mileage) this is going to surface long before the 5yr 60K warranty. For a lot of people.

[thill]

Just checked sales stats and they have sold about 35k FR-S and BRZ's total in North America alone since inception. Anyone know how many have been sold worldwide? 50K? 70K? This issue (DI) would affect all cars, not just North America. Honestly, if the issue is as big as has been discussed by some, we should be seeing thousands of failures by now. I would expect this to be all over the Internet in every major region.

[suaveflooder]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

***Imagine if you had the cash to pony up and buy 4 FRS/BRZ for a driving academy, and then ALL of them went and developed the same serious issue...you wouldn't be concerned or bothered?

So far the failure rate of forum-involved individuals appears to be quite low; but as to the true failure rate, only Toyota/Subaru know. As most are speculating, this problem seems to appear after hard use (perhaps prolonged use as well) and it is unsettling that there is some potential for this problem to become significantly more widespread as the years go by.

For now, this problem could just be an unfounded fear that will not affect the masses, or it can become the automotive equivalent of the boogeyman, crapping on all our hopes and dreams...

The four cars would be under warranty, so i wouldn't care. And there is NO WAY to find out the actual numbers because I'm certain toyota and Subaru won't release that information.

The failure numbers are so small even on these forums it's far less than 1%. No company in their right mind would make a big deal of this until it gets much higher. If you are waiting for the "perfect, no issue" car, good sir, you will be waiting a long while as no car company has one. There will always be failures on every car. You either need to shit of get off the pot in this case. Buy your FRS, or never get one because it will NEVER be perfect.

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by suaveflooder

If you are waiting for the "perfect, no issue" car, good sir, you will be waiting a long while as no car company has one. There will always be failures on every car. You either need to shit of get off the pot in this case. Buy your FRS, or never get one because it will NEVER be perfect.

There is no such thing as a problem-free car, everyone knows that...it doesn't even need to be said. But there is such a thing as a reasonably reliable car.

First-year cars are likely to have issues that require some time and tinkering to correct.

What I've seen in this first model year run in both the variety and the frequency of problems (which I believe will increase in the coming months) is ridiculous. From the leaky taillights to the radio issues, random clunks and CELS, stock engines grenading, oil leaks, coolant disappearing, windows malfunctioning, the direct injector and coil pack issues, etc.

I'll wait until MY 2014 and hopefully enjoy a car with most of the kinks worked out. I don't have the desire or time to make repeated trips to the dealer, wait 30-45 days for replacement parts (like several on here have already), and be stranded if I push the car hard.

Let's face it, the first year adopters are enjoying their cars before everyone else, but they're also guinea pigs for Subaru/Toyota at this point.

I can delay gratification to get more out of the FRS ownership experience in the long run.

[thill]

Originally Posted by suaveflooder

The four cars would be under warranty, so i wouldn't care. And there is NO WAY to find out the actual numbers because I'm certain toyota and Subaru won't release that information.

The failure numbers are so small even on these forums it's far less than 1%. No company in their right mind would make a big deal of this until it gets much higher. If you are waiting for the "perfect, no issue" car, good sir, you will be waiting a long while as no car company has one. There will always be failures on every car. You either need to shit of get off the pot in this case. Buy your FRS, or never get one because it will NEVER be perfect.

This is so true "perfect no issue car". Now I certainly cannot fault someone for waiting for year 3 or so to let the issues rise to the surface and have more data. But there is no "perfect "car". If you dig deep you will find major issues with any car out there for a percentage of users. Some companies more so than others.

When I needed to buy a minivan in 2006, I went and drove them all and the Honda Odyssey was by far the best minivan out there based on my wants and needs. So I started doing research and a small percentage of users were posting like crazy about transmission issues. Basically they would tell you if you bought an Odyssey eye to be on your second or third transmission by 80K miles. The sky was literally falling and it was raining busted Honda transmissions...

Fast forward to 2013. Nearly 7.5 years later and just under 75K miles. Outside of normal maintenance and a new battery and tires, not other issues. Transmission still worked great. Either I got really lucky, or the issue was, and still is not the Odyssey forums, way overblown.

If you have DI issues with this car, I feel for you and hope you get the issue solved ASAP. For folks that have horrible service experiences and have to wait weeks or even months to get this issue resolved, I totally understand your frustration and would probably be looking to lawyer up and go after the lemon law in my state. It is just a car. Get a different one.

For people that don't own the car, or have not had the issue, you need to stop screaming that the sky is falling until it actually is.

I have owned lots of cars. If my BRZ turns out to be a ticking time bomb that Subaru washes their hands of, I will sell it and move on to the next "great drivers car". And I will bitch about it too.

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by thill

Just checked sales stats and they have sold about 35k FR-S and BRZ's total in North America alone since inception. Anyone know how many have been sold worldwide? 50K? 70K? This issue (DI) would affect all cars, not just North America. Honestly, if the issue is as big as has been discussed by some, we should be seeing thousands of failures by now. I would expect this to be all over the Internet in every major region.

How quickly we forget the CEL/ecu/cam timing saga from June through December of 2012.

What started as just a couple of members with the problem quickly exploded into a 200 deep list of people on here with the problem. Multiple members had to have their cars bought back, traded them in, or spent quite a bit of time making trips to the dealer and waiting for their car to be fixed...and that issue did eventually make it to autoblog and jalopnik.

[thill]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

There is no such thing as a problem-free car, everyone knows that...it doesn't even need to be said. But there is such a thing as a reasonably reliable car.

First-year cars are likely to have issues that require some time and tinkering to correct.

What I've seen in this first model year run in both the variety and the frequency of problems (which I believe will increase in the coming months) is ridiculous. From the leaky taillights to the radio issues, random clunks and CELS, stock engines grenading, oil leaks, coolant disappearing, windows malfunctioning, the direct injector and coil pack issues, etc.

I'll wait until MY 2014 and hopefully enjoy a car with most of the kinks worked out. I don't have the desire or time to make repeated trips to the dealer, wait 30-45 days for replacement parts (like several on here have already), and be stranded if I push the car hard.

Let's face it, the first year adopters are enjoying their cars before everyone else, but they're also guinea pigs for Subaru/Toyota at this point.

I can delay gratification to get more out of the FRS ownership experience in the long run.

Lol, you make it sound like every FR-S and BRZ is a POS on four wheels. For every person that has an issue (no matter how large or small) there are thousands that have had none. The majority of issues, up to this point, have been minor. Crickets and leaky taillights, whole annoying, are minor issues. The DI issue is not minor. But very fewer people have reported it to date.

If the 2014 MY fixes these issue it also means there is a fix for the 2013 MY as well. So yes, waiting might save you a trip to the service department, but it is not like the 2013 MY owners are hung out to dry.

And we'll, we get to drive our car everyday and enjoy it.

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by thill

Lol, you make it sound like every FR-S and BRZ is a POS on four wheels. For every person that has an issue (no matter how large or small) there are thousands that have had none. The majority of issues, up to this point, have been minor. Crickets and leaky taillights, whole annoying, are minor issues. The DI issue is not minor. But very fewer people have reporte it to date.

If the 2014 MY fixes these issue it also means there is a fix for the 2013 MY as well. So yes, waiting might save you a trip to the service department, but it is not like the 2013 MY owners are hung out to dry.

And we'll, we get to drive our car everyday and enjoy it.

Oh, I forgot about the crickets...

[thill]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

How quickly we forget the CEL/ecu/cam timing saga from June through December of 2012.

What started as just a couple of members with the problem quickly exploded into a 200 deep list of people on here with the problem. Multiple members had to have their cars bought back, traded them in, or spent quite a bit of time making trips to the dealer and waiting for their car to be fixed...and that issue did eventually make it to autoblog and jalopnik.

And the DI issue could be just as bad. Time will tell.

But in the meantime the sky is not falling.

[robispec]

I've put 10K TRACK miles and due to a filter disintegrating I needed to replace my direct injectors at 9K TRACK miles. They were FINE.
I have run 91 (street only) 91+100 blend 100 only and have been straight e-85 for the last 6K track miles...the last 1k SUPERCHARGED in 100+ degree heat too...
Again NO ISSUES.
Robi

imo these are failures due to DI/cylinder head tolerances and fuel variations...It will get sorted out.
It might also be heat related we have had a super cooling stem for the oil and water since day ONE...
temps stay below 200 water and 225 oil...
KNOCK is caused by a lot of things but HOT heads jump to mind with everything else under control.
RObi

Originally Posted by regal

Its all about miles, that's what sucks about it. First symptoms many wouldn't even notice as there is no CEL.

We need a volunteer to pull there injectors, someone who drives spiritedly has over 25k miles and is confident nothing is wrong with the car. Inspect the seals, how are they holding up ? I'd do it but I only drive 7k per year. I'd be willing to pitch in $100 if we started a collection and it was well documented.

I love these cars but I would hate to see this issue ignored and see the problem escalate as the warranty expires. I would also hate to see someone hurt or killed from a seized engine on the highway.

The issue shouldn't be ignored due to small numbers, I doubt anyone has put 20k city miles on their car.

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by thill

And the DI issue could be just as bad. Time will tell.

But in the meantime the sky is not falling.

Never said it was, but I'm not going to ignore the issue either...

[bestwheelbase]

@Lonewolf well said.

I don't think anyone expects perfection. We just want something that can be driven with gusto and won't fail miserably. These issues with coolant loss, camshaft failure, direct injector seals (causing or resulting from) detonation... are costly issues. And they are happening to street cars.