Stock In-Tank Fuel Filter Degradation

[Shankenstein]

Originally Posted by SkullWorks

interesting, a couple of notes

1.) I didn't see paper or cellulose in there.

2.) Their list of metal (quoted) seems like BS, they have aluminum alloy as one simple line...I have a problem with that , there are dozens if not hundreds of grades of Aluminum, and all are alloys...Pure aluminum is nearly useless for most applications.

3.) They state 6061 and it's oxide layer are suitable for E-85? yet Aluminum must be plated before use in gas stations? 6061 is the most readily available and widely used alloy of Aluminum that I can think of only Al 356 comes close (casting alloy)

4.) Did they maintain the concentration of ethanol somehow, was it constantly replenished? Ethanol (or most alcohols) are hygroscopic, they will absorb their own weight in Water given enough exposure to the humidity in the air. and Ethanol at 110f doesn't hand around very long, the rate of evaporation is pretty substantial in that condition

5.) it is common knowledge (in some circles) that you must anodize Al fuel lines for use in a E-85 application due to the increased risc of corrosion due to the water holding abilities of E-85


What say yee?

1) Don't think paper was in the scope of their test.

2) McMaster has 17 types. They even state that 6061 is the most common for automotive components.

3) Just above that, I mention a Dept of Energy publication that recommends nickel plating aluminum. Certain advanced alloys are likely to be OK, but unless you know the content... there's alot of variance in "aluminum" so plating is a smart idea.

4) If I were a betting man, I'd say they put a bunch of large beakers in a sealed oven (separated from the heating element of course). Set 1 sample in each beaker, hang the other above it. Let it sit for a month, checking occasionally for issues. Weigh the samples pre- and post-test on a digital gram scale. Closed environment means humidity control.

5) E85 responds very differently since it is anhydrous ethanol + gasoline. It gets all of the water separated out before blending. Once it's blended, it's fairly stable... but you're right it can absorb water from the air. E100 (in Brazil and other places) is hydrous ethanol that has 1% water and 99% ethanol. That kind of fuel has it's own can of worms... but it is a simpler fuel to design around (if you happen to have acres of sugar cane lying around).

Thanks for the discussion. Always good to find people with some brains and experience BOTH.

On a lighter note... anybody have a guess what the adhesive is? wood glue? epoxy? Elmer's? Place your bets!

[Adeets]

Originally Posted by Shankenstein

On a lighter note... anybody have a guess what the adhesive is? wood glue? epoxy? Elmer's? Place your bets!

I'm gonna guess some type of hoof.

[SkullWorks]

Originally Posted by Shankenstein

3) Just above that, I mention a Dept of Energy publication that recommends nickel plating aluminum. Certain advanced alloys are likely to be OK, but unless you know the content... there's alot of variance in "aluminum" so plating is a smart idea.

No kidding I got some Cold Finished 6061 from Fry Steel recently that cut alot more like copper than Aluminum...Certed by an American lab CoO was Korea

4) If I were a betting man, I'd say they put a bunch of large beakers in a sealed oven (separated from the heating element of course). Set 1 sample in each beaker, hang the other above it. Let it sit for a month, checking occasionally for issues. Weigh the samples pre- and post-test on a digital gram scale. Closed environment means humidity control.

Thank you that makes sense, I am really just a hillbilly...i was thinking oak barrels coat hanger and the swamp lol

5) E85 responds very differently since it is anhydrous ethanol + gasoline. It gets all of the water separated out before blending. Once it's blended, it's fairly stable... but you're right it can absorb water from the air. E100 (in Brazil and other places) is hydrous ethanol that has 1% water and 99% ethanol. That kind of fuel has it's own can of worms... but it is a simpler fuel to design around (if you happen to have acres of sugar cane lying around).

This is interesting I was not aware that there was a positive (for this application) effect on water absorption by blending the Ethanol and Gasoline.

I had heard alot of boat owners complaining of the E10 blends not storing well due to the large vents on boats and the tendency to absorb water. Was this a scape goat for another source of water contamination possibly?

And Thanks, :happy0180:

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Opposed

Help me to understand how the amount of time the car has been "tracked" has anything to do with it. We aren't talking about tires or brake pads. Are you referring to the amount of fuel going through it at a given time? How does that really effect it? Im actually curious...

It's a positive displacement pump with no means of regulating flow. It puts out the same flow if your at idle in traffic or bombing down the front straight of your favorite track. There is a pressure regulator after the pump that unloads fuel back to the tank to maintain pressure in the system, but that doesn't effect the flow rate within the pump and thus the inlet filter. The fact that most of Robi's driving has been at a great rate of speed means that his pump has been running a lot less then someone who has driven the same amount of miles but in city traffic. I'd really like to see how many hours his car has ran, but most people don't log that.

[markitect]

Originally Posted by Shankenstein

Nylon 6 6

Nylon 12 is the preferred material for flex fuel cars. Nylon 6 12 is good too, but more expensive.

[xjohnx]

Not sure how helpful or relavent this may be, but this post has quite a bit of good info on the BRZ fuel system:

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/built-mo...lkthrough.html

[reeves]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

The filter:
....
5. The enclosure with the filter in it costs ~$145.00. Part #: 42052D is referred to as "Bracket Complete Pump"

For that price I might just cut open my filter too just to see.. if it's not too hard to install, that is.
I'm not a chemist or mechanic.. I still don't understand, nor do I believe (yet) that 10% ethanol won't [eventually] damage something that 85% ethanol will.

[mad_sb]

I wounder if Robi had a pressure relief valve / regulator failure that caused the pressure the spike enough to damage the filter media....

I'm guessing it won't be long before someone offers a modified 42052D that has the filter removed and an external, inline filter in it's place.

[xjohnx]

Originally Posted by reeves

For that price I might just cut open my filter too just to see.. if it's not too hard to install, that is.
I'm not a chemist or mechanic.. I still don't understand, nor do I believe (yet) that 10% ethanol won't [eventually] damage something that 85% ethanol will.

Looks like it's a bit more than that. $269 ($359 list) is what I'm seeing (assuming we're talking about assembly 14, part # 42021CA000)



http://www.buysubarupartsnow.com/par...em/fuel-supply

[Visconti]

Originally Posted by robispec

Yeah we talked for exactly 3 questions posed by me and ten sentences total. Long enought for me to figure out you would never get to work on anything I owned.
I POSTED THE POSTING DATE ON THE PICTURE ABOVE.
As usual you assume an attack when none was launched
Now you fabricate and imply a complete lie. With your "word" as the foundation. I think you are, funny I have no dog in this fight...nothing to sell nothing even to work with right now. I was even looking at don's part as a solution. I'm just reporting what happened to me and my experiances with HIGH VOLUME e-85 usage. It's interesting how using 100 octane race fuel gets twisted to "fuel aditives" you want a war start telling someone in this indusrty KNOWN FOR NEVER LYING, hes lying.
You my freind are already known for the exact reverse actions. Keep it up, your just digging your own grave deeper.
I have never said or implyied anything relating to you on this forum that I have not been forced to live through.

After you were done bragging about how sweet your car was you started on how fast it was.. then you started talking to me about how you switched to ethanol. You had mentioned before that you were always running some sort of octane additive at the track because of the crappy 91 octane. That's where I mentioned that octane boosters or racegas didn't show much in gains but ethanol did. You continued to discuss with me that you thought you'd have a bigger gain with ethanol and didnt like how the car didnt start up correctly in the morning... Sound familiar yet? I told you i was surprised you had startup issues with such warm temps...I then told you I would just flash the car for you but you would have to take that hack of a intake off and go back to stock. After you left some of the guys spoke to me... Lets just say there's a reason I didn't pick up your next phone call.

No one ever said you had a dog in this fight , we all want to know what's going on with your filter and if there is a problem and what caused it. But to come on here and say this is a result of 500 gallons of ethanol use.. well that's not accurate.

John

[dabocx]

In before thread lock >_<

Im sure in a year or two we will have some more data on guys that have been running e85 for 2-3 years.

[Shankenstein]

Originally Posted by xjohnx

Not sure how helpful or relavent this may be, but this post has quite a bit of good info on the BRZ fuel system:

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/built-mo...lkthrough.html

Excellent find! Didn't know that the HPFP was cam-driven, went to 3000 psi, or that it has a built-in pressure sensor. It's looking more and more like the EcoBoost setup that I'm familiar with.

[Visconti]

Originally Posted by Shankenstein

Excellent find! Didn't know that the HPFP was cam-driven, went to 3000 psi, or that it has a built-in pressure sensor. It's looking more and more like the EcoBoost setup that I'm familiar with.

I think most direct injection systems run like this.

Mazda's systems are a pity, HPFP failures all the time. We are very luck someone at Toyota/Subaru did there homework when they put the car together.

[xjohnx]

Mods - Please don't lock this thread. There's a lot of good info in here. If need be, deal with people on a one off basis.