Stock In-Tank Fuel Filter Degradation

[Opposed]

Help me to understand how the amount of time the car has been "tracked" has anything to do with it. We aren't talking about tires or brake pads. Are you referring to the amount of fuel going through it at a given time? How does that really effect it? Im actually curious...

[RedLeader]

Originally Posted by Opposed

Help me to understand how the amount of time the car has been "tracked" has anything to do with it. Are you referring to the amount of fuel going through it at a given time? How does that really effect it?

I don't know, but it could be a factor. I wouldn't rule anything out because this the first time anyone has reported an issue. I'm not saying being tracked heavily is the cause, but I wouldn't be willing to rule anything out right away.

Theoretically, the amount of fuel passing through the filter could be a factor, or the increased demand placed on the fuel system could have had an effect. We know that extended time on a race track puts more wear and tear on a car than normal street driving, or at least DIFFERENT wear and tear, maybe this is related.

Edit: I deleted my previous post to unclutter this thread and leave it for facts. I'd request that those not contributing to the actual topic of this thread do the same.

[brichard0625]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

Don't start this again please. Other thread got locked. Why exactly is that his post can't be Factual?

Both vendors have different accounts and experiences on this topic, let the evidence run its course. Like you said SO FAR its an isolated incident.

i agree lets not do this again and get this thread locked. Alot of people are on e-85 right now and I'm sure most of us are not even taking sides anymore. We just want to know the simple question. Will e85 cause damage? are there any solutions?

[nix]

IMO there is not enough banning of trolls on here.

They shit on valuable discussions every time.

And 9 times out of 10 are not even stakeholders in the thread subject.

[Yruyur]

Originally Posted by Yruyur

Can an existing filter be sent to a lab to determine the adhesive used?

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Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[jamesm]

Well, a quick google search for 'e85 fuel filter' would suggest this isn't unheard of. 'Paper filter degradation' has been documented. Also problems introduced when the fuel filter isn't changed before using it the first time, clogging of fuel filters, etc.

I'm not saying any of this is correct, just that there's plenty out there to read on the subject, and at least some cars do appear to have issues similar to this. I'd imagine there is a reason the vehicle isn't rated for e85 by Toyota/Subaru, so it makes sense that you may run into something like this.

Edit: so it's pretty apparent after reading a bit that you're pretty much just not supposed to use e85 with paper filters. So, in any case, this is surely a problem to some degree and we need a stainless filter to fix it. If you believe the internet, that is.

[Sportsguy83]

Is the intank fuel canister assembly different than WRX/STI's? There is a LOT of data on E85 use in those cars, and if they are the same or at least similar that would help.

[robispec]

Yeah we talked for exactly 3 questions posed by me and ten sentences total. Long enought for me to figure out you would never get to work on anything I owned.
I POSTED THE POSTING DATE ON THE PICTURE ABOVE.
As usual you assume an attack when none was launched
Now you fabricate and imply a complete lie. With your "word" as the foundation. I think you are, funny I have no dog in this fight...nothing to sell nothing even to work with right now. I was even looking at don's part as a solution. I'm just reporting what happened to me and my experiances with HIGH VOLUME e-85 usage. It's interesting how using 100 octane race fuel gets twisted to "fuel aditives" you want a war start telling someone in this indusrty KNOWN FOR NEVER LYING, hes lying.
You my freind are already known for the exact reverse actions. Keep it up, your just digging your own grave deeper.
I have never said or implyied anything relating to you on this forum that I have not been forced to live through.

[Hawaiian]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

Is the intank fuel canister assembly different than WRX/STI's? There is a LOT of data on E85 use in those cars, and if they are the same or at least similar that would help.

This was exactly what i was thinking. Is the same pump assembly used in other subarus? Or is this a new part. If so, is that style of filter used in other pumps.

[Shankenstein]

Bringing it back to facts:
304 Stainless, 6061 Aluminum, and their oxide surface layers are safe for use in E85.
LINK to journal publication

Dupont has a thorough list of reactivities to various solvents:
LINK to charts

The EPA should be an expert in these things... since they are advocating its usage. Here's a list of publications describing the storage and standards surrounding Ethanol-Gasoline blends.
LINK to homepage

The Dept of Energy has a very thorough overview of Ethanol and the infrastructure required for gas stations. Aluminum (assuming 6061 is exempt) and brass must be plated before use.
LINK to PDF

** Appendix B (page 39) of this paper by the Renewable Fuels Foundation shows the list of materials that were soaked in ethanol for 30 days at 110 degF and showed NO decrease in mass when compared to identical gasoline testing.
LINK to PDF

Metals:
Aluminum alloy
Magnesium alloy
Copper
Zinc
Carbon steel
Cartridge brass
Aluminum bronze
Stainless steel
Aluminum alloy (cast)
Iron (cast)
Zinc alloy (cast)
Terne plate

Plastics:
Nitrile
Viton®
Neoprene® (Chloroprene)
Epichlorohydrin
-Homopolymer
-Copolymer
Nylon 6 6
Delrin® (Acetyl polymer)
Teflon®
Polyethylene (high density)
Nitrophyl® (Nitrile rubber)
Fluoroelastomers

[bpracer]

Originally Posted by Shankenstein

B...
** Appendix B (page 39) of this paper by the Renewable Fuels Foundation shows the list of materials that were soaked in ethanol for 30 days at 110 degF and showed NO decrease in mass when compared to identical gasoline testing.

Decrease in mass does not necessarily mean no damage. Ask any owner of Ducati motorcycles with plastic gas tanks about the effects of 10% ethanol. Deforming tanks leading to fuel pump flange leaks, blistering paint, and loosening from their mounts leading to class action lawsuits and lots of ill will with owners. (The new 1199 Superbike now has an aluminum, not plastic tank.)

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by bpracer

Decrease in mass does not necessarily mean no damage. Ask any owner of Ducati motorcycles with plastic gas tanks about the effects of 10% ethanol. Deforming tanks leading to fuel pump flange leaks, blistering paint, and loosening from their mounts leading to class action lawsuits and lots of ill will with owners. (The new 1199 Superbike now has an aluminum, not plastic tank.)

And IIRC Ducati didn't replace the tanks more than once.

[SkullWorks]

Originally Posted by Shankenstein

Bringing it back to facts:
304 Stainless, 6061 Aluminum, and their oxide surface layers are safe for use in E85.

** Appendix B (page 39) of this paper by the Renewable Fuels Foundation shows the list of materials that were soaked in ethanol for 30 days at 110 degF and showed NO decrease in mass when compared to identical gasoline testing.
LINK to PDF

Metals:
Aluminum alloy
Magnesium alloy
Copper
Zinc
Carbon steel
Cartridge brass
Aluminum bronze
Stainless steel
Aluminum alloy (cast)
Iron (cast)
Zinc alloy (cast)
Terne plate

interesting, a couple of notes

1.) I didn't see paper or cellulose in there.

2.) Their list of metal (quoted) seems like BS, they have aluminum alloy as one simple line...I have a problem with that , there are dozens if not hundreds of grades of Aluminum, and all are alloys...Pure aluminum is nearly useless for most applications.

3.) They state 6061 and it's oxide layer are suitable for E-85? yet Aluminum must be plated before use in gas stations? 6061 is the most readily available and widely used alloy of Aluminum that I can think of only Al 356 comes close (casting alloy)

4.) Did they maintain the concentration of ethanol somehow, was it constantly replenished? Ethanol (or most alcohols) are hygroscopic, they will absorb their own weight in Water given enough exposure to the humidity in the air. and Ethanol at 110f doesn't hand around very long, the rate of evaporation is pretty substantial in that condition

5.) it is common knowledge (in some circles) that you must anodize Al fuel lines for use in a E-85 application due to the increased risc of corrosion due to the water holding abilities of E-85


What say yee?

[bpracer]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

And IIRC Ducati didn't replace the tanks more than once.

Yeah, I don't remember the details of the settlement. I spent several hundred dollars on each of my replacement tanks getting them internally coated. Both my PS1000LE and 848 tanks needed replacement.