Safe amount of boost on stock engine?

[jamesm]

i have high hopes for the FA20. with a solid tune i think 8-10psi, 300-350whp on pump gas will last a long while with proper maintenance. considering fbm has countless dyno pulls at 600whp+, daily driving half that, with a good tune (that's the key part), should be plenty reliable. with a shitty tune nothing is safe.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

this exactly...

the basics...

Where's the cliffs?

[lexusb3]

10psi soon wooooo!!! Lol

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by jamesm

i have high hopes for the FA20. with a solid tune i think 8-10psi, 300-350whp on pump gas will last a long while with proper maintenance. considering fbm has countless dyno pulls at 600whp+, daily driving half that, with a good tune (that's the key part), should be plenty reliable. with a shitty tune nothing is safe.

yeah i base my calculations on what has been done so far, a shop that can do 400 dyno pulls at over 400 whp (which has been done i think) holds high hopes for us DD guys who only want 260-300 whp and want it to run for a long time.

Originally Posted by King Tut

Where's the cliffs?

cliffs?

[lexusb3]

Originally Posted by jamesm

i have high hopes for the FA20. with a solid tune i think 8-10psi, 300-350whp on pump gas will last a long while with proper maintenance. considering fbm has countless dyno pulls at 600whp+, daily driving half that, with a good tune (that's the key part), should be plenty reliable. with a shitty tune nothing is safe.

The fa20club kit will get you 300 at only 5psi pump so you will be ok long term well at least 6,000 miles cuz that's all I have so far on this kit lol

[Whitigir]

You sir is one of many people with much knowledge about FI system. I would look after your build to mimic. Now, I am still waiting for new FRS or BRZ to see what TOYO-BARU have to improve. If not, until you Build your, I would buy mine USED, and go the same ROUTE !

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

this exactly...

the basics...

Your engine can only flow a certain volume of air.
Changing the density doesn't change the volume of air entering the engine.
The density that the air is at, decreases, if you shrink the tubing along the path and increases visa versa.

Turbine spool rate: faster is always better depending on the flow rate of that turbo and its threshold. high spool rates signify the efficiency of the turbo. aka needs less exhaust pressure to spool. this in turns lets air leave the engine faster. This decreases the amount of energy the engine has to exert to remove the ignited air and fuel out of the engine.

There are 3 places where energy is used in a natturally asparated combustion engine.
1 to turn the drive shaft
2 to evacuate exhaust gasses
3 pulling in air

this is where turbos help/hurt...
1 air is now being pushed into the combustion chamber
2 more air is available for combustion
but
3 they create more internal heat = loss in power
4 the turbine on the exhaust side creates lots of back pressure and when the air heats up from combustion, the volume of which the air wants to occupy increases dramatically making lots of pressure with the turbo holding it back like a damn behind the turbo. this is why a fast spooling turbo is recommended. air moves out faster and the engine has to do less work to achieve it.

gtx3076R is great turbo for this. Quick spool, high flow rate, and a high threshold



Now that we have the basics done.

reliability
1. measure the air density and flow rate as close to the intake valves as possible, preferably after the throttle body.
2 find a turbo that flows the best vs the amount of hp you want to achieve
too small and your engine/turbo will have to work harder, too big and you will increase lag and back pressure lower in the rpm band
the gtx3076R or comparable turbo is a great mid point, spools fast with lots of room to grow if you need it and you can rev high with it without running our of breath. also with less back pressure you have less heat and your turbo will run cooler during daily driving doing less damage to itself and all components around it.
3 larger intake inlet before the turbo the turbo will be able to flow more with less work = less heat/faster spool times (this is why the PTuning kit works so well with low boost, notice how large that intake pipe is!)

4 a high flow/efficient intercooler. This allows the air to move slower through the intercooler allowing more time for the compressed air to cool. and remember above picture, the larger path compressed air has to move through the denser it is = more power
5 think about getting a larger throttle body as an upgrade at some point to relieve the bottle neck effect of air that reduces air density but not too large that it hurts the flow rate a few mm larger can yield some pretty good gains on a turbo set up. also with a larger opening the air is cooler by the awesome means of physics. when you accelerate air through a confined space it heats up.
6 watch those air fuel ratios, keep them conservative. with the set up above you should be able to make the same power as someone with a less efficient kit that is running more boost and timing and be more reliable than them
7 Turbo placement, is the turbo placed where it can do the least amount of damage as it radiates heat, and is it near a place that has a flow of air to cool it?
8 Oil coolers for the engine/turbo oil and transimission
9 use better oils that have the correct additives for your application and last longer. I personally like 15k mile extended performance M1, track days i like motul.

more reliability!
1 have custom pistons made with the same tolerances in mind as the factory (pretty strict) that are made specifically for your engine's measurements.
2 have water sprayers installed to cool your intercooler for hotter days. (just like STI's )
3 Titanium valves, springs, and retainers (more heat resistant than stock, but from what I've read the stock valve train is pretty good as is)
4 proper fueling: make sure your running equipment that can exceed what you need so you aren't running your pumps at 100% at redline wearing them out. I've always gone by the rule that the pumps/injectors should be around 60%-75% of their threshold at fuel cut
5 change oil more frequently, like every 2k - 3k miles.( for dd's that never see track time just a bunch of hooning)

even more reliability! (lots more money)
1 get a baffled pan and a dry sump to cure oil starvation
2 sump system in the fuel tank so you don't have fuel starvation issues, if you lean out you could blow up your engine! (accelerated performance is developing a kit!)
3 if you want more power, run e85 and get a flex fuel kit in case you get shit E85 like we do in Texas that not always E85 plus you can just pour 93 when ever you don't feel like running E85 and not have to switch any maps

there's more you can do and there's a million different factors i could go over but i don't feel like typing any more

I hope this clears some things up

so reliably isn't measured in whp

its measured in tq, intake and exhaust temperatures, how efficient the engine flows from the intake to exhaust tips, timing, and are all parts up to the job?

if you build your engine, make it as efficient as possible, and keep up with standard maintenance. I don't see why the engine couldn't last for over 100k miles of daily driving at 400 whp and 200k miles at 280 whp. of course track hours are completely different but it should reflect in the same way.

and to answer the OP question
as long as the kit is efficient, sensors are in their correct place for accurate readings, running a conservative tune and low boost (under 9 psi) your turbo frs/brz/gt86 should last you 100k miles

my last car i modified it to run up to a 9800 rpm redline, beat it for 74k miles putting a grand total of 152k miles on a 12 year old car. and never once had an issue. i raced to work on a bone cold engine ever day during the winter and bounced off that almost 10k fuel cut every day. if you want to turbo. do it right the first time and you'll never regret it.

I'm not turbo yet... why? the parts i want to build my kit with don't exist yet. until the fuel fix with accelerated performance is finished i wont even consider doing my build. good thing flex fuel is though! thanks visconti!

Like for example there's a silver frs in north texas that was turbo'd, it was build, tuned by the right people. and because a catalytic converter wasn't up to the task, it melted and shit itself into the turbo. 1 small part like that that could have been replaced with a much better part and that failure would have never happened.

EDIT: also a water-meth injection kit can also be added, these kits clean the inside of the engine's combustion chamber. ive seen photos of cars that ran water/meth for 70k miles and the insides of them look brand new

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

cliffs?

Cliff notes, the summary of your post


Great post BTW!!

[Sonolin]

Wow, thanks for the excellent post @carbonBLUE !!!

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by Whitigir

You sir is one of many people with much knowledge about FI system. I would look after your build to mimic. Now, I am still waiting for new FRS or BRZ to see what TOYO-BARU have to improve. If not, until you Build your, I would buy mine USED, and go the same ROUTE !

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

Cliff notes, the summary of your post


Great post BTW!!

my build?
EDIT Garret GTX3076R
New Turbo Kit Sneak Peek(Ptuning)
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31218
Accelerated Performance's Fuel System Fix for the BRZ/FRS/GT86
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36231
FBM Billet High Flow Fuel Rails
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?p=905152
PTUNING: PnP Water/Methanol Injection System w/Optional Failsafe
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34654
FA20CLUB Oil Cooler Kit
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35854
racelogic traction control system
http://www.racelogic.co.uk/
B&M ATF Cooler
http://bmracing.com/?page_id=1046
KOYO Radiator
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?p=811571
Ferrea's Valve components
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24283
Visconti Tuning Presents: True FlexFuel
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35787
Custom
Air evacuation/splash guard for bottom mount turbo for PTuning kit

Mahle pistons (haven't decided the compression ratio yet, also i choose them because they like to mimic DI OEM piston design and a lot of research went into our OEM pistons, plus i had them on my last car, no issues)

there are a couple things i haven't decided on yet, like boost controllers, injectors, hpfp, lpfp, ect...

until i've decided on what i want to do 100% im not buying anything plus i need to buy a cheap car for the down time like some 1k civic or something and then keep it around in-case anything ere to go wrong

EDIT:
i will be running about 10 psi at about 310 whp with a VERY conservative tune, if i can achieve it at 8 psi even better. im at low altitude so those goals on the PTuning kit will be had very easily
also as a reminder 310whp on AWDtuning's dyno will be more than it seems (they read REALLY low) i got like 140whp base line there and on another dyno i got about 163 whp under similar conditions

even that im undecided about i may just shoot for 280 and call it a day i dont want a rocket ship but im ready for boost

EDIT EDIT:
many thanks to all the shops and people who went ahead and boosted into the unkown, without you i would not have come to an informed decision on what build i wanted to do!!! seriously all of yall rock!
it took 6 years of research in the 2zz-ge engine community before i was comfortable with getting the car and modifying it to my liking. as far as FI goes this community has come futher than most in 1 year than other have in 5-10 years. So much love for this car.
And many thanks goes out to toyota and subaru for giving us an awesome platform and such a strong engine. I had a convo with a few supra guys who's jaws dropped when i told them theres a 600+ whp FRS/BRZ running around with over 300 dyno pulls under its belt, and its on stock internals... that says ALOT.

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

my build?
Garret GT3076R
New Turbo Kit Sneak Peek(Ptuning)
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31218
Accelerated Performance's Fuel System Fix for the BRZ/FRS/GT86
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36231
FBM Billet High Flow Fuel Rails
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?p=905152
PTUNING: PnP Water/Methanol Injection System w/Optional Failsafe
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34654
FA20CLUB Oil Cooler Kit
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35854
racelogic traction control system
http://www.racelogic.co.uk/
B&M ATF Cooler
http://bmracing.com/?page_id=1046
KOYO Radiator
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?p=811571
Ferrea's Valve components
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24283
Visconti Tuning Presents: True FlexFuel
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35787
Custom
Air evacuation/splash guard for bottom mount turbo for PTuning kit

Mahle pistons (haven't decided the compression ratio yet, also i choose them because they like to mimic DI OEM piston design and a lot of research went into our OEM pistons, plus i had them on my last car, no issues)

there are a couple things i haven't decided on yet, like boost controllers ect...

until i've decided on what i want to do 100% im not buying anything plus i need to buy a cheap car for the down time like some 1k civic or something and then keep it around in-case anything ere to go wrong

Nice. You should start a placeholder build thread so I can subscribe, lol.

[nix]

Originally Posted by Sonolin

How do you get in the "ecutek and haltech" networks? Is that a secret club for ecutek dealers?

It's just the tuners talking to each other. Mine tunes on about half a dozen ems brands and they are all interested in the fa20.

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by Sonolin

Nice. You should start a placeholder build thread so I can subscribe, lol.

I will when i get around to it, ill also be able to report back on reliability because i do drive a fuck ton, give avg mpgs

im at 30k miles already, 3 years after i get the kit ill do a tear down and post pics on how well the engine took boost for 100k miles

i plan on doing a few track days at mineral wells and tell you how it feels going sideways... all in good time... when the parts are ready and im ready ill start my build thread.

ill have a talk with my local shop and see which parts i can do without for those who don't want to spend the full amount but also don't want crazy hp numbers. things like pistons and valves aren't necessary but i do drive my car pretty hard for a DD

I watch and learn from others mistakes.. and ill probably make some mistakes myself... but I'm ready to shed some blood, sweat, and oil again like i did on my last car

EDIT: also im looking for that subaru rumble sound... I WILL FIND A WAY! lol

[carbonBLUE]

i meant GTX3076R not GT3076R i edited the above post

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

cliffs?

Really? It was a joke.