E85 Fuel?

[Siriusly.Andrew]

so how big of a difference is it exactly? would it be feasible to run every day over 87? Or is consumption quite a bit higher?

[Biggie™]

Originally Posted by Siriusly.Andrew

so how big of a difference is it exactly? would it be feasible to run every day over 87? Or is consumption quite a bit higher?

I would expect at least a 40% increase in consumption. So it would basically take you 14+ gallons to go as far as you would have gone on 10 gallons of gasoline.

[Siriusly.Andrew]

But you'll get there faster :P

[NESW20]

Originally Posted by Siriusly.Andrew

But if you had it tuned for E85, how well would it run if you were somewhere that didn't yet market E85 @ their pumps?

it would be tuned from the factory for E85. switchable maps would allow it to run on either fuel.

-Mike

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Biggie™

I like the people that admitted to not knowing anything about the fuel just checking NO.

Anyway... Where to start, I guess with the basics:

1. E85 has an octane rating of 105. The higher the octane rating the more compression, boost and timing you can safely run. These all increase power.

2. Ethanol evaporates at a relatively low temperature. The effect of evaporation does two main things to increase engine performance:
2a. The effect of evaporation cools the intake charge(the same way a methanol/water injection kit works). This increases the density of the intake charge, more fuel and air are then allowed into the cylinder. More fuel and air makes more power.
2b. The effect of evaporation cools the intake manifold and intake valves. This helps reduce detonation and allows even more boost and or ignition timing. This also helps cool the entire engine, thus while running E85 the engine will run cooler longer.

3. E85 has a much lower stoichiometric fuel-to-oxidizer ratio. This means it takes less air to burn the same amount of fuel, or you can add more fuel to the same amount of air to produce more power. This might confuse some people as Ethanol actually produces less power per gallon than gasoline. But the fact you can burn so much more E85 with the same volume of air allows it to make noticeably more power than gasoline on the same engine.

So, to sum it all up. On a car capable of running both E85 and normal gasoline, when running E85 the car can run more fuel at higher boost and with more advanced timing. Thus making considerably more power with just fuel and a basic tune.

Does that make sense?

1- high octane gas will produce the same effect more efficiently

2- That same evaporation can cause hydrolock at high temperatures

3- Again, you still end up using more E85 to make the same power as a lesser amount of gasoline.

I don't think that anyone who voted no does not know what they are talking about, quite the contrary, they(we) know exactly what we are on about.

[Biggie™]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

1- high octane gas will produce the same effect more efficiently

Not true, since E85 can make more power with the same amount of air. The stock turbo in the FT86 will be able to produce more power with E85. The E85's cooling effects will also let the stock turbo be effective beyond its normal efficiency range, pushing more air, making even more power.

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

2- That same evaporation can cause hydrolock at high temperatures

You seem confused. Evaporation is the point when a liquid turns into a gas. You can compress a gas(no hydrolock). The low evaporation temperatures of Ethanol would prevent it from remaining a liquid(no hydrolock). Also, the combustible nature of gaseous ethanol would prevent it from accumulation in enough quantity to produce a hydrolock situation(no hydrolock).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrolock

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

3- Again, you still end up using more E85 to make the same power as a lesser amount of gasoline.

110 octane leaded is $8.55 a gallon which is comparable to E85 at $2.35 a gallon.

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

I don't think that anyone who voted no does not know what they are talking about

Oh, really?

Originally Posted by Siriusly.Andrew

Please note, this post is for those of us who know absolutely nothing about the flex fuel..

Originally Posted by Siriusly.Andrew

Sorry for my haste in checking No, just flexing my ignorance

[OldSkoolToys]

not that wiki is a 100% guarantee of good information, but:

If a retailer chooses to post octane, they should be aware that the often cited 105 octane is incorrect. This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline. This is not the proper way to calculate the octane of E85. Ethanol’s true octane value should be used to calculate E85’s octane value. This results in an octane range of 94-96 (R+M)/2. These calculations have been confirmed by actual octane engine tests."

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85, where the citation for this quote takes you to: http://www.ethanolrfa.org/resource/t...pdatedLogo.pdf


Sooo my question to the E85 guru is this: Is the loss of efficiency in MPG, for the typical ~$0.20 difference between E85 and regular petrol, worth only a 1-3 octane boost?

[Biggie™]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

not that wiki is a 100% guarantee of good information, but:


from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85, where the citation for this quote takes you to: http://www.ethanolrfa.org/resource/t...pdatedLogo.pdf


Sooo my question to the E85 guru is this: Is the loss of efficiency in MPG, for the typical ~$0.30 difference between E85 and regular petrol, worth only a 1-3 octane boost?

Okay, I thick these are the official numbers:

E85:
Research Octane Number: 113
Motor Octane Number: 94
Anti-Knock Index (R+M/2): 104

Here is a GT-R running 92 octane Vs. E85, seeing an improvement of 61 hp and 73 tq from E85. The GT-R wasn't designed to run E85, so they had to upgrade injectors and fuel pumps. But other than that, both setups were identical. Click the graph to read the blog.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Biggie™

Not true, since E85 can make more power with the same amount of air. The stock turbo in the FT86 will be able to produce more power with E85. The E85's cooling effects will also let the stock turbo be effective beyond its normal efficiency range, pushing more air, making even more power.

You seem confused. Evaporation is the point when a liquid turns into a gas. You can compress a gas(no hydrolock). The low evaporation temperatures of Ethanol would prevent it from remaining a liquid(no hydrolock). Also, the combustible nature of gaseous ethanol would prevent it from accumulation in enough quantity to produce a hydrolock situation(no hydrolock).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrolock



110 octane leaded is $8.55 a gallon which is comparable to E85 at $2.35 a gallon.


Oh, really?

Same amount of air, same amount of air.... we are talking about fuel here.

In my haste to post I wasn't very clear. E85 CAN cause hydrolock in your engine at high temperatures, especially if your car is stored for a long period of time.

Finally, you quoted the same person twice.

[Biggie™]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Same amount of air, same amount of air.... we are talking about fuel here.

We are talking about air and fuel, that's how an engine works. E85 takes less air to burn. Thus with the same amount of air you can burn more fuel, making more power. Simple stuff.

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

In my haste to post I wasn't very clear. E85 CAN cause hydrolock in your engine at high temperatures, especially if your car is stored for a long period of time.

Um ya... Gas does the same thing. Just fill up before you store your brand new FT86 for a few years and it wont absorb too much water from the air in the fuel tank.

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Finally, you quoted the same person twice.

But the quotes are from two different post, proving my point.

[Siriusly.Andrew]

< still learning
waving the ignorance good-bye gradually.
EDIT :::

Originally Posted by Biggie™

the same amount of air you can burn more fuel, making more power.

observation so far :: It takes the same amount of AIR, but requires 30+% more FUEL to produce the same BANG. BANG drives us to the station to get more FUEL.
Is it worth the price difference at the pump?

[Biggie™]

Originally Posted by Siriusly.Andrew

Is it worth the price difference at the pump?

If we use that GT-R's results as an example. Would an 11+% bump in HP be worth the extra fuel costs over regular gasoline. And when you don't need it you just fill up with normal gasoline?

Anyway, there is a ton of information online about running E85 in factory turbo applications. I'm not planning on daily drive my FT86, so E85 is a great alternative to expensive race fuel. You just have to do research and find out what works best for your needs.

[Lexicon101]

Originally Posted by Biggie™

If we use that GT-R's results as an example. Would an 11+% bump in HP be worth the extra fuel costs over regular gasoline. And when you don't need it you just fill up with normal gasoline?

Anyway, there is a ton of information online about running E85 in factory turbo applications. I'm not planning on daily drive my FT86, so E85 is a great alternative to expensive race fuel. You just have to do research and find out what works best for your needs.

11+% boost, but the graph shows right there in the legend that the setups on the car are different.
I want to see the same setup produce those numbers. Then I'll take your claims of HP boosts srsly.

[S2KtoFT86]

Originally Posted by Lexicon101

11+% boost, but the graph shows right there in the legend that the setups on the car are different.
I want to see the same setup produce those numbers. Then I'll take your claims of HP boosts srsly.

This. And you can't use one person as your sample size and then generalize that for everyone.