odd comparison that I can't stop thinking about.

[JoeBoxer]

Originally Posted by j-tan

Am I the only one who thinks 53hp gain to the wheels is a lot in a 2700 pound car?

Thats a lot in any car, i'd be plenty happy with 50hp to the wheels but more importantly to me another 40-50ft lbs of torque in the midrange.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by Calum

I don't know if I should post this. Maybe I shouldn't as it might cause flame war or arguement, but I can't stop thinking about this comparison.

Yes, the header and exhaust in johnbradley's post isn't giving the gains in the upper part of the rpm range. But when you consider the costs of the two, including the installation costs, what they will do to the warranty, and the fact that Nameless is working on an intake manifold I really think Nameless is going to be able to get better gains for much less money and they will certainly still have the NA predictability and feeling.

I'm just wondering if others in this FI forum are thinking about this, and if so, what are your thoughts?

1. The predictability of NA and S/C is the same. There is no lag, or hesitation.
2. Staying NA is cool too. It is just way more costly and difficult to gain HP vs. boost.

That header/exhaust/tune combo is going to run you ~$3000 total for a max of 15-20 HP maybe = $150/HP.

Centrifugal S/C kit + exhaust will run you ~$6000 = $120/hp.

The cost per hp with a turbo is even lower. $100/hp
3. Can turn up the boost later with more mods to gain more power easily. It gets more and more expensive/difficult to extract power from an NA engine as you get further along.

[Calum]

Lots of guys are looking at the top end of those two plots, I was looking at the mid to low end. That header/exhaust & tune is making very similar power right up to about 5K rpm. This being where most of us spend most of our time driving, I think it's worth considering the merits of both directions.

As @JoeBoxer said, 40-50 ftlbs of torque. The plot that Nameless posted with the baseline included showed a peak of 43 ftlbs gained.

[2forme]

It's also not as simple as cranking up the boost. You run into knocking issues and have to retard timing to compensate. Didn't Visconti say there was barely any difference power-wise between the 6psi and 10psi pulley on his Vortech kit? I could be misremembering, but I think it was said.

[industrial]

Originally Posted by Calum

Lots of guys are looking at the top end of those two plots, I was looking at the mid to low end. That header/exhaust & tune is making very similar power right up to about 5K rpm. This being where most of us spend most of our time driving, I think it's worth considering the merits of both directions.

As @JoeBoxer said, 40-50 ftlbs of torque. The plot that Nameless posted with the baseline included showed a peak of 43 ftlbs gained.

+40wtq at 4000 rpm is nice for grocery getting. +40wtq at 7500 rpm is nice for actually going fast. Just saying...

Here is a graph roughly comparing the two. Maybe this will help illustrate how far apart two setups are when driving in anger. I'll give you that for grocery getting, it's kind of shocking how similar they are. I'm not sure how much the nameless mani will add to the top end. Adding 30-60hp when engine VE is nosediving seems like alot of ask. They did work some magic with the dip though so who knows, I'm just not optimistic an intake manifold will do much without cams.

[JoeBoxer]

I'd still take the Nameless looking at that graph even though it doesn't show the tq figures, i'm absolutely fine with the gains levelling off at 6750rpm it's still going to be higher than stock and way more fun getting there.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by industrial

+40wtq at 4000 rpm is nice for grocery getting. +40wtq at 7500 rpm is nice for actually going fast. Just saying...

Here is a graph roughly comparing the two. Maybe this will help illustrate how far apart two setups are when driving in anger. I'll give you that for grocery getting, it's kind of shocking how similar they are. I'm not sure how much the nameless mani will add to the top end. Adding 30-60hp when engine VE is nosediving seems like alot of ask. They did work some magic with the dip though so who knows, I'm just not optimistic an intake manifold will do much without cams.

Which dyno are you using for your Vortech numbers. I hope it's not Perrins....

[industrial]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Which dyno are you using for your Vortech numbers. I hope it's not Perrins....

I just dumped the numbers from the graphs in this thread into excel to create that tidy graph.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by industrial

I just dumped the numbers from the graphs in this thread into excel to create that tidy graph.

Ah, I did a graph a while ago comparing Perrin's to my E85. It looked a bit different than that. I don't have it on this machine, though.

[johnbradley]

Originally Posted by polancd

not to mention that those nameless numbers are uncorrected

Are Visconti's uncorrected or corrected? Its chopped out of that pic so I am not sure.

Originally Posted by JoeBoxer

I'd still take the Nameless looking at that graph even though it doesn't show the tq figures, i'm absolutely fine with the gains levelling off at 6750rpm it's still going to be higher than stock and way more fun getting there.

Torque is there, it may be difficuilt to see because of coloring but it is there.

[mad_sb]

The Ideal setup is going to be the nameless long tube headers, full exhaust, AND a supercharger. No reason to choose one over the other.. do the exhaust first, enjoy the car for a while, then add a supercharger a little bit latter on.... that's my plan anyway.

[cf6mech]

Best thing to happen for this car right now is a stand alone ECU for FI.

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by cf6mech

Best thing to happen for this car right now is a stand alone ECU for FI.

mehhh, can't pass emissions with a stand alone where i live. With a little more development on the stock ecu it won't be needed at all. Don't get me wrong, i love standalone's but for most of us they simply are not an option unless your car will never be registered for use on public roads.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

The Ideal setup is going to be the nameless long tube headers, full exhaust, AND a supercharger. No reason to choose one over the other.. do the exhaust first, enjoy the car for a while, then add a supercharger a little bit latter on.... that's my plan anyway.

If there's anything I've learned from this car, it's patience. Or that I don't have any...? I leased a car for four years waiting for this to come out. (I couldn't believe how serendipitous it was when I got the call to pickup my FRS on the day my Impreza was going back.) When the twins came out the aftermarket starting exploding, but all the potentially really good stuff was taking a long time to develop which meant more waiting. Then Nameless starting posting some awesome stuff, even more waiting. Then the Vortech and Innovate threads started and even more waiting.

In the end I'll probably end up with a similar setup, I just hate the waiting!!