NA engine mods for turbo money?

[xjohnx]

I have a hard time taking modification advice from someone who spent money on a TWP Throttle Controller.

[Orthow]

Love these topics - grew up on them being from the Honda world. If anyone knows N/A best it's the Honda/Acura guys (no offence gentlemen). Just last weekend we had a K-series civic hit 8.009 N/A soon to be a 7 second car!!!
These little engines can easily make over 100+Wheel Horse Power per Cylinder naturally aspirated. Not sure how easy that would be in an FRS/BRZ but I'm sure with enough money it's possible.

To do a build to match a 250whp turbo setup is not overly difficult. I personally don't feel this little engine can do it with off the shelf bolt-ons though. If if could, the current FI offerings would all be making more power but they aren't which leads me to believe there are some bottle necks in the oem setup.

My quick and dirty N/A build to spank an under performing boosted build (<300whp FI):

1) Reworked Intake Manifold (cut open and ported everywhere)
or
Custom Intake Manifold - whichever performs better on a flow bench

2) Bore out the bottom end to increase displacement <-Cheapest/easiest route
or
Custom Stroker Setup (crank, rods, pistons, ect) <-Could be 3k alone $$

3) Rework the heads with custom porting and bowl work
or
At minimum a Port and Polish w/valve job

4) Custom header with 2.5" or 2.75" collector (not sure which will respond better)
mated to a 3" straight pipe Exhaust w/burns turndown <- won't be quiet but will make great power

5) Stand-alone Engine Management <Yes, just like Fast & Furious but it really is a good way to spend a grand or two if you are serious about daily driving a heavily built N/A setup. I've run stand-alones for years and even pass emissions lol

To be honest the build I mentioned above could easily hit 10k - closer to 7k if you went with some of the lesser options. Either way you would walk all over boosted cars anywhere near 300whp. And if it doesn't cost that much use the extra coin towards a Dry-sump <-man I sometimes forget how expensive it is to play with the big boys with an N/A setup lol

Should also mention - to all the diehards that wouldn't want to upset the Center of Gravity of their cars - the N/A method would be best suited to you as you avoid extra piping, a turbo, intercooler and all the rest.

[GT86drifter]

this is gona happen someday

[Opposed]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

That's going to be a bit tough. 160 ft-lb on a dyno is probably not going to happen, because that comes out to race tuned engine levels of specific torque. 215hp could happen if you had the rev limit bumped up via tune and cams reground. New cams that push the power past 7000 are going to be necessary for any significant boost in power. Rather than an intake (which usually doesn't do squat) you want a manifold with shorter runners (will lose low end torque, needs remap of cam phasing).

It has happened...

[soros151]

Originally Posted by wlfpck

That is one thread. With limited users who no longer are active. Not to mention that the tC does not rev nearly high enough for it to present a problem. The vibrations never reach the frequency (resonant frequency) for it to be an issue.

Also... again... Read the other sources that I have posed in the other threads about the pulleys.

Do I have concrete evidence? No. It can be backed up by physics and the basic laws of physics.

As for pulley related failures, go visit some of the supra forums and read up on the people who have had engine failure due to an undampened pulley.

Guillermo Polo, Michael Gaari, Lance at Toyomoto in Miami, and a host of other Supra owners what happens when you remove your harmonic damper and replace it with a UR pulley.* [quote taken from the link I have posted below]

Here's the thing. I could care less if you run this on all your cars or not. Either way, there is proof out there that the pulley is fine. There is also proof that the pulley is not.

http://www.yoursciontc.com/forums/12...lley-info.html

^^ Read that.


As for you running a pulley, it doesn't affect me either way whether you run one or not. It does not matter if anyone here runs one or not.

However, there are companies such as ATI Racing, Fluid Dampr, Dynan, etc that make DAMPENED, light weight pulleys which cost 3 times the price of an undampened one. If there was no reason behind the dampening, then no one would buy them.

Also.. NHRA requires the use of dampened crank pulleys.


Like I said in my other posts (different pulley thread), I have done the research and posted the sources that I used to come to MY conclusion. Whether people want have the same conclusion is not my issue nor concern.

If you have read the other pulley threads that I have posted in, you'll also see that I say that I have no idea how the boxer engine reacts with the lightened crank pulley as I have no research on the effects of lightened crank pulleys on a boxer engine. The research sources that I have used refers mainly to the I4 and I6 motors.

Final thing... your statement seems to make it seem that I do not believe in lightweight parts. Whether that was your intention or not... You are free to look again to the other pulley threads that I have posted in and see that I fully support the use of a lightweight flywheel and other parts.

I completely understand your point and I respect it. I was not trying to make it seem like you didn't believe in lightweight parts for the engine. No worries. I will definitely look into boxer engine configurations to see how long they have lasted or if any problems have come up.

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Off that list, pistons are not bolt on. For cams I would personally only do the intake cams (I imagine this would run 300 for regrinds) since messing with exhaust cams can affect driveability, and we're not increasing the rev limit that much. There is definitely no need for injectors and plugs, and a "cold air intake" is not going to do squat.

The only difference between this and what's already been done is the cams of course. A bigger intake cam with adjusted timing for some overlap at high rpm and additional duration could see a bit more power, possibly 240 at the crank on pump gas.

title is NA mods for turbo money so pistons count, you are taking the engine out anyways might as well replace pistons.

i never said which cams but normally you buy both, how derivable are they? Depends on how aggressive they are.

And i never specified which intake, injen intake does help(ram air), especially if you are doing headers, an intake should be bought to get the most out of the headers

Injectors? you dont really need them, but its better to have injectors that are MADE for E85 for reliability's sake

Plugs? umm running the right temperature plugs with E85 is a MUST

and the whole kit is still less than a turbo kit and its possible to hit 250whp and around 180 tq with those parts, its theory built on experience in building 4 cylinder engines.

if you can get 250whp out of a small turbo kit and thats all you want, you might as well rebuild NA and get an ultra responsive 230-240 whp engine build that's more reliable

I used to respect your posts at one point on the forums, even if i was pointed out on something i was wrong about, but if you're just trolling ill take what you have to say with a grain of salt.

[dabocx]

We need ITBs and cams available for this car already. I cant wait to see what bolt ons and cams can do for this car.

[srt4evah]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

if you could invent an electromagnetic engine to keep the turbo spooled off boost then the electromagnetic engine would shut off under throttle, that way you would never loose boost. that would be the only way to get rid of turbo lag. but then there would be vacuum pressure off boost in the exhaust headers

When the exhaust valve opens the exhaust gasses would be sucked out of the combustion chamber. This would create a higher vacuum inside the combustion chamber when the intake valve opens creating a more turbulent tumble of the incoming air, mixing the air and fuel better for a better homogeneous mixture thus a more efficient burn. also with the turbo at max boost you can see better fuel economy on the intake side.

so now you have almost no lag at all and better fuel economy when cruising.

genius right?

also with the turbo at max spool all the time, the turbo would be cycling more oil off boost, and sucking in air cooling the turbo further. so you dont burn up as much oil doing back to back runs at the track.

You can already keep the turbo spooled without engine load, that's what anti-lag systems are for, but it's not practical or durable to keep the turbine spun up at all times. All you have to do is open the wastegate all the way to bleed the excess boost constantly. Again, not practical, but it's already done that way in certain types of launch control or anti-lag systems.

In any event, it's not something you can do 100% of the time, but you can get that instant response 100% of the time with a naturally aspirated motor.

[JesseE]

Full Exhaust, custom ITB setup, big cams, and supporting mods to rev to 9k... should make 250 whp realistically... same $$$$ as a avo kit if you do your own labor. With labor/tuning everything probably not saving any money. for the same power...

It's not better than turbo/Supercharger, not even necessarily more reliable, but different...

[wlfpck]

Originally Posted by xjohnx

I have a hard time taking modification advice from someone who spent money on a TWP Throttle Controller.

Group buy and free shipping... why the hell not?

Also... Not sure if you realize this or not...

Blitz, Weapon-R, etc etc. make throttle controllers as well. If you really wanted to, you can actually go to radio shack and find the components to make your own.

This is due to the new drive by wire systems as opposed to the cable throttle found in older cars. As a result the position of the accelerator pedal is not a linear correlation in how much the throttle is open.

The position of the accelerator pedal depression relays a voltage that the ECU then utilizes to determine how much the throttle should be open. If you graph out the amount the throttle is opened vs. the amount the gas pedal is depressed, you'll fine that it is an exponential correlation.

All the throttle controller does is correct for that.

-----

Now if you think I'm stupid for getting a TWP throttle controller, then so be it. However, the SOURCES that I provided, are not created by me. So regardless of what you think of my intelligence level, the sources are still there.

Notice that I have posted already that I do NOT know whether or not the information from my own research can be applied to boxer engines.


-----

So unless you are under the assumption that everyone in the sources that I have posted has purchased the throttle controller, your statement is pretty much useless and completely irrelevant.

[wlfpck]

Originally Posted by soros151

I completely understand your point and I respect it. I was not trying to make it seem like you didn't believe in lightweight parts for the engine. No worries. I will definitely look into boxer engine configurations to see how long they have lasted or if any problems have come up.

I haven't really seen a lot (if at all) threads in say NASIOC and what not about the Perrin lightweight pulley failures. However, like I said before, I don't really have the data or substantial research on how lightweight pulleys impacts a boxer engine.

It would be interesting to see. I think there are a couple guys on NASIOC that are running the Perrin lightweight pulley.

[xjohnx]

Weapon-R makes them? I'm sold! Next up, APC.

[soros151]

Originally Posted by wlfpck

I haven't really seen a lot (if at all) threads in say NASIOC and what not about the Perrin lightweight pulley failures. However, like I said before, I don't really have the data or substantial research on how lightweight pulleys impacts a boxer engine.

It would be interesting to see. I think there are a couple guys on NASIOC that are running the Perrin lightweight pulley.

I haven't found any more info on the matter for our type of engines. There is reviews, bu nothing after thousands of miles. I did read the previous links and they look interesting. A good read for whoever wants to get more knowledge.

[Dipstik-sportech]

1992 Honda civic b18ls/vtec: custom built 2.09L stroker built by King Motorsports, 14:1 comp, custom side swept stainless 2-1/8" header, custom intake manifold, custom pistons by wiesco, benson sleeves, skunk 2 cams, fully ported and polished head(flow bench tested), 110 vp race gas etc... 274whp 180ft/lbs = $10,280 plus tuning

1993 civic delsol b18ls/vtec: 100,000mile stock short block, stock gsr cams, used Jackson racing m62 supercharger, aem water meth kit, kamikaze header, rc 440 injectors, etc...276whp 186ft/lbs = $5,892 with tune

Even with a brand new kit from Jackson racing it wouldn't even be close to the price of the king engine. Don't forget when swapping pistons most people will have to pay a shop to do it for them which will be considerably more than bolting on a turbo. This is only one example and I'm not saying its going to hold true for others but its my experience.