NA engine mods for turbo money?

[soros151]

Originally Posted by wlfpck

You WILL show gains when the dyno is an interia based dyno. Your engine which makes say.... 200 hp at the CRANKSHAFT, will STILL make 200 HP at the crankshaft. In other words if you pull the engine and hook it up directly to a dyno without going through the pulley and such, your engine will still make 200 hp.

You get a gain because you reduce the amount of rotating mass which is why it shows up on inertia based dynos. You will also see the side effects of faster revs. Other than that, that is it. You can achieve these same results with a lightened flywheel and lighter wheels.

Though for the purposes of getting the most amount of decrease in rotational mass, I would go with the flywheel. Then you bypass the possible problems that come with a undampened crank pulley.

http://www.scionlife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61222

7 years. 44 pages. Thousands of posts. Where are the failures that these Pulleys create? I'm a big believer in lightweight parts for engines, and this is one mod, I WILL always do. I have yet to see anyone have a single pulley related failure. No engines breaking apart, no rods flying out, no cranks being shattered.

[srt4evah]

Originally Posted by GingerExtract

Mike, you might want to consider glasses. Both my avatar and my signature have cars prepped for AutoX and track days (Take a guess who was driving them). Also, the term "throttle response" is such nonsense that has been propagated by people who are trying to describe torque delivery. Adding a turbo to a car would not change "throttle response" in the slightest, you press the accelerator, and the TB opens up, a turbo does not change that. A turbo may cause a slight decrease in initial thrust as exhaust gases have to be recycled to spin the turbo but modern turbo technology makes "lag" really a thing of the past as long as the turbo is well-matched to the motor.
I'm just saying, why waste $1000's of dollar building the motor only to make as much (at best) as a low boost OTS turbo kit.
I could write a book about this but I will stop because I can already tell that you and many others will be foaming at the mouth to tell me that "throttle response" is the most important thing and "NA power is the best power!"

Two words: Power delivery.

No turbo setup is completely lag free, the laws of physics guarantee it. The turbines are not spun up and producing boost instantly, there will ALWAYS be some degree of lag with a traditional turbo setup. Compare two motors with similar power and torque figures, one NA and one turbo, and you will most certainly immediately see the difference.

Some people don't want 300-500hp at the expense of instant power delivery. Tap your accelerator to the floor in your favorite turbo car as fast as you can and you will see that the car doesn't even react. Do the same on a similarly powered NA setup and the car will jerk forward the instant your foot touches the accelerator.

Spool will always exist on a turbo app. It will never exist in an NA app. That's all.

[JoeBoxer]

The main reason i'm staying NA for now is honestly the expense, i can buy NA power parts seperately and thats a lot easier than dropping $4-6k at one time.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by brichard0625

My setup is going to be Intake, exhaust with highflow cats and overpipe, headers,pulley,tune,better tires. The rest is going to be cosmetics for my car. Im looking for 215+hp/160+tq on a dyno n im happy

That's going to be a bit tough. 160 ft-lb on a dyno is probably not going to happen, because that comes out to race tuned engine levels of specific torque. 215hp could happen if you had the rev limit bumped up via tune and cams reground. New cams that push the power past 7000 are going to be necessary for any significant boost in power. Rather than an intake (which usually doesn't do squat) you want a manifold with shorter runners (will lose low end torque, needs remap of cam phasing).

[soros151]

Originally Posted by brichard0625

I have to agree...i wont lie i would love to go force induction but i really dont have a valid reason on why i would spend 5000+ on a turbo kit that im probably never going to take full advantage of. When it comes to mods i think the most im going to spend is 3000-3500. All i need is a few more horses. Only cars im going to encounter are the typical ricers and i just want to be faster than theirs.
My setup is going to be Intake, exhaust with highflow cats and overpipe, headers,pulley,tune,better tires. The rest is going to be cosmetics for my car. Im looking for 215+hp/160+tq on a dyno n im happy

Do you think it would be more feasible if you take the cat out of the equation?

[JW89225]

If the engine have potential to go 250hp at the crank NA with bolt on + tunes + catless, I'll definitely do it. Even if its getting close or more than a turbo kit price range.

NA engines have something that cant be measured and therefore cant be judge by money factor. You can experience it on a track where its the most obvious or on a good winding road.

The crisp response, linear power band, instant feedback cannot be replicated by a turbo or even supercharger. (Precisely why many track goer still prefer the feel of the Z06 over the ZR1) Notice how almost all great supercars are NA except for F40 and a selected few.

Big manufacturer spend millions of dollar engineering modern turbo sports car and still when you nitpick its nothing like a well done NA motor. AMG even said themselves that the new V8 TT did not match the response that the C63 AMG Black needed thus staying with the 6.2L NA motor. That's why I'll never buy into the fact that aftermarket tuners can totally solve the issue no matter the claims when even big multimillion multinational companies can't.

Turbo is good too especially nowadays where technology masks the problem of response so well, also turbo have benefit of big power, good consumption, high efficiency, big torque. However, there is also reliability and longevity issue no matter how you spin it because there is more moving parts, more complication, more heat and more potential chance of failure.

But, let say you aim for a target for HP and you have a generous budget. I would assume NA is the better choice for a driver's car. Unless you are aiming for HP that is simply beyond NA's reach. I also don't think a well done turbo set up would be cheaper than a well done NA setup, there are always unforeseen issues that can pop up when tuning and the more things you put in like a turbo the more chance of things going wrong.

Coming from my past experience driving/owning 335i (turbo + tuned) 330i (NA) M3 (NA + tuned) F12 M6 (stock) S2000 (Exhaust) I'll stick to high revving NA as long as they keep making them.

Interesting thing is some people running a SC kit on their M3s are getting worse result than a full bolt on NA M3 on the track due to many reasons. Some members simply get accustomed to NA better while other are heat soaking and cant maintain consistency. Mind you, theses are extremely well done kits costing anywhere over $10000. Makes my bolt on NA M3 seems like a bargain and I get to keep my warranty too. A fully bolted on M3 can probably make around 480hp while the stage 1 supercharger kit only makes around 535hp. That potential 55 HP difference on track is small than one might believe, on a street though like a highway drag or stoplight to stoplight, that's another issue and I bet the FI car would kill the NA.

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by srt4evah

Two words: Power delivery.

No turbo setup is completely lag free, the laws of physics guarantee it. The turbines are not spun up and producing boost instantly, there will ALWAYS be some degree of lag with a traditional turbo setup. Compare two motors with similar power and torque figures, one NA and one turbo, and you will most certainly immediately see the difference.

Some people don't want 300-500hp at the expense of instant power delivery. Tap your accelerator to the floor in your favorite turbo car as fast as you can and you will see that the car doesn't even react. Do the same on a similarly powered NA setup and the car will jerk forward the instant your foot touches the accelerator.

Spool will always exist on a turbo app. It will never exist in an NA app. That's all.

if you could invent an electromagnetic engine to keep the turbo spooled off boost then the electromagnetic engine would shut off under throttle, that way you would never loose boost. that would be the only way to get rid of turbo lag. but then there would be vacuum pressure off boost in the exhaust headers

When the exhaust valve opens the exhaust gasses would be sucked out of the combustion chamber. This would create a higher vacuum inside the combustion chamber when the intake valve opens creating a more turbulent tumble of the incoming air, mixing the air and fuel better for a better homogeneous mixture thus a more efficient burn. also with the turbo at max boost you can see better fuel economy on the intake side.

so now you have almost no lag at all and better fuel economy when cruising.

genius right?

also with the turbo at max spool all the time, the turbo would be cycling more oil off boost, and sucking in air cooling the turbo further. so you dont burn up as much oil doing back to back runs at the track.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

so now you have almost no lag at all and better fuel economy when cruising.

genius right?

There is a limit to how much you can cut the lag. An NA engine feeds off atmospheric air, which is well, already at atmospheric pressure. Any forced induction solution involves a little lag between the moment power is commanded and the time when the manifold is fully pressurized. I think in Eaton's brochure they had 0.5 seconds before full boost.

I've never driven a supercharged car (or even a turbocharged car) so I don't actually know if it's perceptible or not, since 0.5 seconds is pretty close to the amount of time it takes to actually step all the way down on the pedal. It seems likely that a small air to water intercooler supercharged setup could have lower lag than that though.

What I do know is that if I stomp on the gas really hard and fast on my NA engine I get a huge jerk

On this engine, I think a realistic power peak would be 7400-7500rpm. With shorter intake manifold runners, bigger intake cams (but not too much or else the low end will cease to exist), full exhaust, and E85, 250hp could be doable. Remember we are asking more power than an F20C at only 90% of the rpms, and that engine hits 168ft-lb torque with VERY wild cams!

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

There is a limit to how much you can cut the lag. An NA engine feeds off atmospheric air, which is well, already at atmospheric pressure. Any forced induction solution involves a little lag between the moment power is commanded and the time when the manifold is fully pressurized. I think in Eaton's brochure they had 0.5 seconds before full boost.

thats why i said ALMOST no lag

But with the electromagnet motor keeping the turbo at full boost, the engine no longer runs off atmospheric pressure at idle but now off of what ever your max boost is

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I've never driven a supercharged car (or even a turbocharged car) so I don't actually know if it's perceptible or not, since 0.5 seconds is pretty close to the amount of time it takes to actually step all the way down on the pedal. It seems likely that a small air to water intercooler supercharged setup could have lower lag than that though.

What I do know is that if I stomp on the gas really hard and fast on my NA engine I get a huge jerk

On this engine, I think a realistic power peak would be 7400-7500rpm. With shorter intake manifold runners, bigger intake cams (but not too much or else the low end will cease to exist), full exhaust, and E85, 250hp could be doable. Remember we are asking more power than an F20C at only 90% of the rpms, and that engine hits 168ft-lb torque with VERY wild cams!

ohh yeah NA that is more than possible, maybe not right now but in the future it will as better parts develop


and to be completely honest if the electromagnet motor was used as a charging unit(alternator), when on the gas and the electromagnetic motor is no longer spinning the turbo but the turbo now spinning the electromagnetic motor, for a hybrid system, you could further extend gas mileage by charging hybrid batteries, coupled with a much larger alternator

in a racing application you could hook electric motors to the front two wheels like the new Porsche and use that for acceleration on corner exits. The whole system would extend your range in a race significantly.

you could have 285 whp 300 tq and 40 mpgs highway(or more), turbo power coupled with the hybrid system for better tq especially down low... it would be a mean green machine...

but then at the same time you would add weight to the car, so now you would have to use more exotic materials to bring that weight back down
with the batteries mounted low along with the electric motors on the front wheels the CoG could be lowered even further...


i bet i sound crazy at this point now right?

[serialk11r]

Nah you don't sound crazy, we've discussed this in length in off topic haha.

Realistically, a blowdown turbine isn't going to be very cost effective unless we're talking rather high boost. Off load, there's very little pressure for it to work with so it's just dead weight (admittedly not much dead weight). On a race car where the rest of the engine is already fine tuned to the limit, and you're at WOT and high rpm for a majority of the time, the extra 5%-7% power is really worth it. Of course, if the car is already hybrid and turbocharged, this is a welcome addition.

IMO, something like a CVT or dual speed supercharger on Miller cycle is a good street solution.

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Nah you don't sound crazy, we've discussed this in length in off topic haha.

Realistically, a blowdown turbine isn't going to be very cost effective unless we're talking rather high boost. Off load, there's very little pressure for it to work with so it's just dead weight (admittedly not much dead weight). On a race car where the rest of the engine is already fine tuned to the limit, and you're at WOT and high rpm for a majority of the time, the extra 5%-7% power is really worth it. Of course, if the car is already hybrid and turbocharged, this is a welcome addition.

IMO, something like a CVT or dual speed supercharger on Miller cycle is a good street solution.

yeah that also is a solution, but isnt readily available

but to get back on topic


turbo kit 6k

NA kit
high compression pistons $600-$900 (13.0:1-14.5:1)
cams $600
Injectors $600
Spark plugs $20
Intake $300
Headers $800 -$1200
Muffler delete $150 (showed best gains discussed in another forum)
Tune $900(E85)

could see 250whp
for around 4100-4600 have 1400 for a set of rims and tires = $6k

or you could get valves + install of internals for around 1400-1800 and raise that redline to 9k for more POWA

[serialk11r]

Off that list, pistons are not bolt on. For cams I would personally only do the intake cams (I imagine this would run 300 for regrinds) since messing with exhaust cams can affect driveability, and we're not increasing the rev limit that much. There is definitely no need for injectors and plugs, and a "cold air intake" is not going to do squat.

The only difference between this and what's already been done is the cams of course. A bigger intake cam with adjusted timing for some overlap at high rpm and additional duration could see a bit more power, possibly 240 at the crank on pump gas.

[wlfpck]

Originally Posted by soros151

http://www.scionlife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61222

7 years. 44 pages. Thousands of posts. Where are the failures that these Pulleys create? I'm a big believer in lightweight parts for engines, and this is one mod, I WILL always do. I have yet to see anyone have a single pulley related failure. No engines breaking apart, no rods flying out, no cranks being shattered.

That is one thread. With limited users who no longer are active. Not to mention that the tC does not rev nearly high enough for it to present a problem. The vibrations never reach the frequency (resonant frequency) for it to be an issue.

Also... again... Read the other sources that I have posed in the other threads about the pulleys.

Do I have concrete evidence? No. It can be backed up by physics and the basic laws of physics.

As for pulley related failures, go visit some of the supra forums and read up on the people who have had engine failure due to an undampened pulley.

Guillermo Polo, Michael Gaari, Lance at Toyomoto in Miami, and a host of other Supra owners what happens when you remove your harmonic damper and replace it with a UR pulley.* [quote taken from the link I have posted below]

Here's the thing. I could care less if you run this on all your cars or not. Either way, there is proof out there that the pulley is fine. There is also proof that the pulley is not.

http://www.yoursciontc.com/forums/12...lley-info.html

^^ Read that.


As for you running a pulley, it doesn't affect me either way whether you run one or not. It does not matter if anyone here runs one or not.

However, there are companies such as ATI Racing, Fluid Dampr, Dynan, etc that make DAMPENED, light weight pulleys which cost 3 times the price of an undampened one. If there was no reason behind the dampening, then no one would buy them.

Also.. NHRA requires the use of dampened crank pulleys.


Like I said in my other posts (different pulley thread), I have done the research and posted the sources that I used to come to MY conclusion. Whether people want have the same conclusion is not my issue nor concern.

If you have read the other pulley threads that I have posted in, you'll also see that I say that I have no idea how the boxer engine reacts with the lightened crank pulley as I have no research on the effects of lightened crank pulleys on a boxer engine. The research sources that I have used refers mainly to the I4 and I6 motors.

Final thing... your statement seems to make it seem that I do not believe in lightweight parts. Whether that was your intention or not... You are free to look again to the other pulley threads that I have posted in and see that I fully support the use of a lightweight flywheel and other parts.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by wlfpck

That is one thread. With limited users who no longer are active. Not to mention that the tC does not rev nearly high enough for it to present a problem. The vibrations never reach the frequency (resonant frequency) for it to be an issue.

The only thing I would say to you and @soros151 regarding the lightweight pulley, is that the evidence you want to be looking at is of Boxer engines. Inline 4, V6, V8, I-6, are all different types of configurations that will behave differently to a lightweight pulley.

Check on WRX's forum (like NASIOC) for evidence on how a Boxer motor reacts to it. You will find the consensus after hundreds of thousands and years of mileage to be that it will not hurt your motor.