What makes the Boxer engine so special

[Theognosis]

In a front-engine layout, the boxer engine allows the designers to make the hood lower and make the front fenders appear elevated (look at those 86's sexy front).

The 86 won't be as sexy as it is if it has inline. Just compare the 370z's hood to it and see the difference.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by SuperDave

sorry man, you can't just pull random proclaimations out of your anus without facts or links. it's simple really, you brought it up so you have to have proof to show for it, i'm not gonna waste my time to look up baseless claims
also, no one said the cog of the 86 was ground breaking or anything like that, the marketers just said it's low...

I'm having issues attaching stuff from my phone, so bear with me. I will do all the hard Google and math stuff for you.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&tb...j4.Q_NfZiuyw2Q

First hit should be a link to an NHSTA .Pdf about Static Stability Factor. Read it.

Within the link they explain how they derive SSF.

SSF=track width/(2*cog)

In their data they rate the 1990 Miata's SSF as 1.59. The average of the 1990 Miata's track width is 56.2"

So we have 1.59 = 56.2/(2cog)

Cog = 56.2/3.18

Cog = 17.7"

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I'm having issues attaching stuff from my phone, so bear with me.

tapatalk is your friend

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by SuperDave

sorry man, you can't just pull random proclaimations out of your anus without facts or links. it's simple really, you brought it up so you have to have proof to show for it, i'm not gonna waste my time to look up baseless claims
also, no one said the cog of the 86 was ground breaking or anything like that, the marketers just said it's low...

this isnt a court of law or anything man. there is no burden of proof. i dont care if you believe me. not everything i have learned has been from the internet. im sorry i dont have a link to the phone calls and talks i have had in the community. if your curious look it up. if not, dont. the cool thing about facts are that they are right whether you believe them or not.

[Carban]

We know a lot of this had to do with marketing and saving money...hence the partnership.
Companies can and do build amazing cars without the boxer engine, obviously.
The question was why use a boxer in the frs. Not in a supra...or anything else but the small, sleek, affordable, and (somewhat) simple FR-S.

[SuperDave]

Originally Posted by fatoni

this isnt a court of law or anything man. there is no burden of proof. i dont care if you believe me. not everything i have learned has been from the internet. im sorry i dont have a link to the phone calls and talks i have had in the community. if your curious look it up. if not, dont. the cool thing about facts are that they are right whether you believe them or not.

this isn't a court of law?! SHOCKING! we know that, i only made my comment about "so says the guy with the inline engine" because we know you're trying to debunk the hype around the 86, we get it, you think it's not that special, but the rave reviews of it have people thinking it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and you want people to know, "hey there are other cars out there are just as good!" we get it.

but you do realize that you're on the ft86 website, and it you're gonna hear a lot about the 86 on this website, so bashing it or telling people it's not that great isn't really productive right?

i'm a fan of the miata/mx-5, have been since i first saw one in 95 when i started getting into cars. saying that your car is better because it has a lower cog and then not bringing facts to back it up doesn't make any sense right? how can anyone take anything seriously if they don't have sources for their info? this is a discussion board, not a fox news where facts and sources go the way of the doo doo bird. thanks to dimman for the links btw.

however you can imagine how annoying it would be for people at the mx-5 message boards, if a bunch of scion tards were to go over there and post about how much better the FR-S is than the mx-5, right?

you're a reasonable guy fatoni, i've said my peace. props to fun vehicle lovers.

[Hardrock4445]

Originally Posted by SuperDave

this isn't a court of law?! SHOCKING! we know that, i only made my comment about "so says the guy with the inline engine" because we know you're trying to debunk the hype around the 86, we get it, you think it's not that special, but the rave reviews of it have people thinking it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and you want people to know, "hey there are other cars out there are just as good!" we get it.

but you do realize that you're on the ft86 website, and it you're gonna hear a lot about the 86 on this website, so bashing it or telling people it's not that great isn't really productive right?

i'm a fan of the miata/mx-5, have been since i first saw one in 95 when i started getting into cars. saying that your car is better because it has a lower cog and then not bringing facts to back it up doesn't make any sense right? how can anyone take anything seriously if they don't have sources for their info? this is a discussion board, not a fox news where facts and sources go the way of the doo doo bird. thanks to dimman for the links btw.

however you can imagine how annoying it would be for people at the mx-5 message boards, if a bunch of scion tards were to go over there and post about how much better the FR-S is than the mx-5, right?

you're a reasonable guy fatoni, i've said my peace. props to fun vehicle lovers.

This.....

[daiheadjai]

Originally Posted by Dimman

It had everything to do with money. Toyota had nothing close to longitudinal motor that was suitable. Subaru did. Subaru had pretty much the whole suspension and brakes too. As well allowing the Toyota board to see the project as 'safer' and cheaper by splitting the risk. Seeing the mounting differences between the L6s and this H4 show that the platform may not be as 'purpose built' as people seem to think.

However they did a fantastic job on the car. This is neither 'because of' nor 'in spite of' the boxer motor. It was the most cost effective solution, but also much more identifiable as a Subaru engine, so they are hyping the shit out of its properties to make it look like Toyota was a bit more in control (however they did do some behind the scenes un-fucking of the motor, beyond just the D4-S).

That's it. Toyota hasn't made a flat motor in what, 50 or 60 years?

@Mr 286 Displacement rules probably played a role, but as you are probably alluding to it, balance and reducing the polar moment of inertia played a big role. See if you can dig up an engine bay shot of those JGTC Supras and compare with the FT86. Then consider that the 3S is 4 cylinders long with the same bore as the FA20 which is 2 cylinders long (plus all the other stuff, it's obviously not twice as long but I hope you see what I'm getting at).

However if you think I will be butt hurt about the mighty 2JZ being replaced with a lowly 3S (though I'm pretty sure it was a 4T race relative, but I'll have to research more on that...), realize that you're talking to a guy that has fantasies about putting a turbo 2AZ (Camry motor) into a Supra to knock 2-300lbs off the nose and achieve a 50:50-49:51 balance.

Cliffs:

Toyota got a good deal on the cost of the boxer.

Totally agree - Why would anybody hate on the 3S-GTE?
If it weighs less (than the 2JZ) and handles enough power to get the job done (i.e. JGTC and WRC), what's not to like?

[BuBlake]

Anyone else notice how much the car shakes at the rev limiter while in neutral? My guess is it's because the timing is cut off and effectively makes it seem unbalanced.

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by SuperDave

this isn't a court of law?! SHOCKING! we know that, i only made my comment about "so says the guy with the inline engine" because we know you're trying to debunk the hype around the 86, we get it, you think it's not that special, but the rave reviews of it have people thinking it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and you want people to know, "hey there are other cars out there are just as good!" we get it.

but you do realize that you're on the ft86 website, and it you're gonna hear a lot about the 86 on this website, so bashing it or telling people it's not that great isn't really productive right?

i'm a fan of the miata/mx-5, have been since i first saw one in 95 when i started getting into cars. saying that your car is better because it has a lower cog and then not bringing facts to back it up doesn't make any sense right? how can anyone take anything seriously if they don't have sources for their info? this is a discussion board, not a fox news where facts and sources go the way of the doo doo bird. thanks to dimman for the links btw.

however you can imagine how annoying it would be for people at the mx-5 message boards, if a bunch of scion tards were to go over there and post about how much better the FR-S is than the mx-5, right?

you're a reasonable guy fatoni, i've said my piece. props to fun vehicle lovers.

Yep. Which is why I refrain from mentioning on here how much I love my BMW's. You know, with their inline 6's and all

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Originally Posted by RedRocket

Only it doesn't. Have you looked under the hood? It's low

But it appears that way because the engine height is shorter, since the pistons don't have to move up and down and won't need the vertical clearance for that... just the sideways clearance.

Originally Posted by DEnd

Toyota had plenty of engines that would be suitable for a small rwd sports car.

But not necessarily for this one. Obviously they'd want to stick with a four-cylinder engine, but the ones that are on their production lines for U.S. consumption aren't really sporty enough for 86 duty.

Originally Posted by fatoni

the cog of the frs is impressive but its no where near groundbreaking.

And on top of that, while it's a good height for its center of gravity, a lot of people look over the fact that it's a smaller car than a lot of the other vehicles its center of gravity gets compared to. In that graphic that someone posted, it even mentioned the Evo and STI, both of which are larger AWD sedans that weigh 700-800 pounds more.

Originally Posted by Theognosis

In a front-engine layout, the boxer engine allows the designers to make the hood lower and make the front fenders appear elevated (look at those 86's sexy front).


The 86 won't be as sexy as it is if it has inline. Just compare the 370z's hood to it and see the difference.

That will be the case until it gets turbocharged and receives a factory TMIC like the vast majority of the production turbocharged Subarus that have been made in recent years, then you'll have a taller hood and a scoop protruding from it as well.

[Rayme]

Originally Posted by BuBlake

Anyone else notice how much the car shakes at the rev limiter while in neutral? My guess is it's because the timing is cut off and effectively makes it seem unbalanced.

longitudinal engine. You're making the crank and flywheel quickly change rotational speed it's going to rock it left and right, unless a transversal engine.

...depending on what makes the car rock of course

[DEnd]

Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83

But not necessarily for this one. Obviously they'd want to stick with a four-cylinder engine, but the ones that are on their production lines for U.S. consumption aren't really sporty enough for 86 duty.

The 2AR-FE could easily work for this car. Granted the car would probably look different and it wouldn't have the cool engine tie in to the 86 nomenclature. Heck they could destroke it and shorten the block a few mm, which would lighten the engine up a bit, lower its Center of Gravity, decrease its rotating mass so it revs easier and allow it to rev a bit more.

The 1AZ-FSE has the same bore and stroke as the boxer used in the 86 line, as well as the D-4 injection system, and should be able to reach the same hp levels, though it might need a head revision to do so.

I am sure there are plenty of other options as well, as I am not familiar with Toyota's engine line up really. Toyota is not lacking in 4 cylinder engines than can be sporty

[NOHOME]

Probably cause it is hard to cram that much ugly into any other engine configuration!

I love a bunch of stuff on my FRS, but the engine is kinda silly in both appearance, sound and to some degree performance.

Time will tell if it grows on me.