Bilstein b6 + Stock springs

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by OND

You have zero experience driving a BRZ on track.



You have a total misuderstanding of even very basic concepts when it comes to vehicle dynamics, as seen in my previous compilation of your obnoxious statements.



You don't have any numbers or data to think that you have improved the way your BRZ drives, except the receipts of the parts that you bought. If you think zero front camber, 20mm front sway and MCA rear bracket on an otherwise stock suspension gives a "good driving experience", you probably can't tell the difference between "loads of understeer" and "good driving experience" either.



If you think the 2017 BRZ drives anything like your car (which has 20mm front sways, zero front camber, 14mm rear sways and MCA suspension bracket, according to what you say), you again don't have a clue about the new BRZ.


As a mechanical engineer who has been reading and learning from knowledgeable people on this forum for years (been reading the forum way before I joined), it is really easy for me to spot an armchair engineer like you giving out bad advice. However, for the sake of beginners who might use this thread as reference, please stop trying to push your uneducated opinions as facts.

Multiple people have been calling you out on multiple threads and you keep saying there is an issue with the community. You should start thinking that maybe the issue is not everybody else, but you.

You're just a fun lovin' guy obviously.

I know I'm right because I just did what the factory has just done to make their BRZ better. I improved on that by not increasing front spring rate but going with the 20 mm front bar instead. Subaru did the opposite, left the 18 mm bar in place and increased the front spring rate. I also fit the MCA traction brackets which every BRZ needs, including from the factory. Those Impreza trailing arm pick up points are just wrong.

The factory also increased the rear bar to 15 mm which I decline to do. Being a mechanical engineer you will understand why increasing rear roll stiffness on a supercharged BRZ would be pretty dumb. Also, you would understand that a softer rear spring rate would need a slightly stiffer rear roll bar just to keep the roll resistance close to ideal for the naturally aspirated stock car. For bonus points you can now reply describing how you think a roll bar works. Bet you can't.

So, if I don't understand how all of this works then neither does the factory.

Your turn.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by lutfy

The weakest link on this car (on the track) is camber.

Usually the weakest links in order are:
1. Driver
2. Brake pads/fluid
3. Camber

Originally Posted by Gforce

So, if I don't understand how all of this works then neither does the factory.

Your turn.

Toyobaru builds cars knowing that 9/10 of them will never be driven hard, like yours, and prioritize good tire wear on the street, predictable handling dynamics, and reduced NVH knowing that enthusiasts can easily get what they want out of the car by modifying it. It sounds like you have a great setup for you, the rest of us with experience tracking/autoxing the car would not want your setup.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Usually the weakest links in order are:
1. Driver
2. Brake pads/fluid
3. Camber



Toyobaru builds cars knowing that 9/10 of them will never be driven hard, like yours, and prioritize good tire wear on the street, predictable handling dynamics, and reduced NVH knowing that enthusiasts can easily get what they want out of the car by modifying it. It sounds like you have a great setup for you, the rest of us with experience tracking/autoxing the car would not want your setup.

I entirely agree. My modifications were aimed at improving this car as a sportscar for road use year round in any weather. Subaru finally did the same so I am confident I am on the right track (har har).

Note that the OP was on the same topic until others sidetracked into irrelevant considerations.

The very best mod you can do is buy some track time with an instructor. I did. I was fast. End of.

The biggest problem with tracking a car set up for the street is brake pads. The BRZ brakes are fine but you need harder pads in order to enjoy a track session. This applies to all road cars not already fitted with ceramic brakes (and I mean the full ceramic set up not the ceramic pad wannabees). That's a big ticket to invest just to avoid having to switch out pads every time you want to go on the track.

As for camber, yup, if you want to increase grip you increase camber up to a point but that only works in very hard cornering. Most of the time on the road it wears out perfectly good tires for no reason. Lowering the car would be more sensible than changing stock camber. Lowering the car improves the static camber and reduces the anti squat plus stiffer springs mean less camber change for a given cornering force. From experimentation it seems around 1.5 to 2.0 negative rear camber is the maximum you should go for with stock ride height and stock springs. Front camber at the fixed zero degrees is just fine right up to breakaway. My BRZ oversteers readily at the limit because I have a supercharger. Less understeer I just do not need. Nevertheless, I am thinking of going to between 0.5 and 1 degree negative front camber. The outside edges of my front tires are showing a little scrubbing and it isn't toe in wear. The stock BRZ also oversteers fairly easily under power so adding a stiffer front bar is essentially a no brainer. If you are going to fit lowering springs then hold off on the bar until you choose your springs. I'm sure all the good lowering springs increase the front spring rate by more than they increase the rear rate. The TRD set certainly does.

And so on.

The OP was just asking if adding B6 dampers would work with stock springs (just work, not necessarily be sportier). I know for a fact that they do. Fitting B6 is an absolute no brainer for pre 2017 BRZ. Now for 2017 Subaru fit some nice Sachs units which I know for a fact are an excellent damper, comparable in every way to a Bilstein. Driven on lots of Sachs dampers. Driven on Koni yellows also but not my favourite damper. I admit to being a Bilstein snob.

I also fit a set of 2017 rear springs and they perform the ultimate magic, better handling AND a much better ride. The stock BRZ pre 2017 pogos a lot until you fit B6 rear dampers. Rear springs far too hard. Far too many cars with sporting pretensions come with rear springs too stiff for the front springs selected by the manufacturer. British and Italian cars never do. BMW, Mercedes and Audi all pogo noticably by comparison with any British or Italian car. Alfa Romeo GTV6 anyone? Beautiful chassis. Any Jaguar? How about a McLaren 12C now THAT's an amazing chassis, better than Ferrari can manage.

After fitting my B6 I discovered Whiteline rear subframe bushing inserts. Those should be the way the car comes from the factory. No negatives at all to fitting those, an absolute no brainer.

Wheel hop is vicious with stock suspension and any tire even slightly stickier than stock. Even a set of Sottozeros will be enough to cause wheel hop. A transmission mount bush at least keeps the shift lever from hitting you in the eye (exaggeration for effect, keep your shorts on). A truly effective cure for wheel hop is a set of MCA traction brackets. There are just no negatives to these little puppies (except cost). Our Ozzie friends posted some good objective data about these brackets. I am not interested in effects on lap times but I am interested in getting the power down from my supercharger. MCA has the cure for premature wheelspin exiting the apex.

[Ernest72]

Different drivers can feel different things for the same setup. Some people like a tighter car (understeer), others like a looser car (oversteer). Generally, a looser car is faster than a tighter car. The problem with a loose car is that it may or may not be predictable. All cars are usually pretty tight from the factory because its safe, when the front pushes people slow down. Having the rear end snap out, most people would freak and over compensate one way or the other leading the car to go into the opposite lane or off the road. A neutral car where the rear end comes around nicely and falls in line is what you really want. But a loose car is more fun. In dry and wet conditions my stock BRZ is fun and predictable. In snow it can be tricky but manageable.

[norcalpb]

Originally Posted by Gforce

You're just a fun lovin' guy obviously.

I know I'm right because I just did what the factory has just done to make their BRZ better. I improved on that by not increasing front spring rate but going with the 20 mm front bar instead. Subaru did the opposite, left the 18 mm bar in place and increased the front spring rate. I also fit the MCA traction brackets which every BRZ needs, including from the factory. Those Impreza trailing arm pick up points are just wrong.

The factory also increased the rear bar to 15 mm which I decline to do. Being a mechanical engineer you will understand why increasing rear roll stiffness on a supercharged BRZ would be pretty dumb. Also, you would understand that a softer rear spring rate would need a slightly stiffer rear roll bar just to keep the roll resistance close to ideal for the naturally aspirated stock car. For bonus points you can now reply describing how you think a roll bar works. Bet you can't.

So, if I don't understand how all of this works then neither does the factory.

Your turn.

I think you'd love increasing the front spring rates along with increasing front camber. I think the people responding to you are correct that 0 degrees of camber is not good for rotation.

[OND]

Originally Posted by Gforce

You also do not want to be running aggressive camber or reducing understeer.

This car is very tricky to drive on low grip surfaces, very tricky.

The mechanical engineer from Texass is just blowing smoke. If you shout loudly enough or offensively enough that makes you right, I guess, in Texas.

Sure, right, these cars are sooooo tricky to drive in low grip surfaces. It has nothing to do with your lack of driving skills. It has to be the car and its treacherous tendency to oversteer for no reason at all .

This was me on my very first wet trackday trying to powerslide the BRZ for the very first time last November. I am nowhere near as skilled as some people here and after some tries, even I was able to hold slides at angles that would probably cause involuntary defecation for you:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJGqBUSLIkg&t=24s"]Subaru BRZ drift/powerslide fun on damp Harris Hill Raceway - YouTube[/ame]

Originally Posted by Gforce

I know I'm right because I just did what the factory has just done to make their BRZ better.

So you are saying Subaru knows their stuff.

Originally Posted by Gforce

I also fit the MCA traction brackets which every BRZ needs, including from the factory. Those Impreza trailing arm pick up points are just wrong.

And you are also saying Subaru doesn't know what they are talking about.

Originally Posted by Gforce

So, if I don't understand how all of this works then neither does the factory.

No, you don't understand how any of this works and the factory does.

Originally Posted by Gforce

For bonus points you can now reply describing how you think a roll bar works. Bet you can't.

We already went through this, so I will just reply to you with quotes. One is a concise and accurate description, the other is meaningless gibberish. I'll let you guess which one is which:

Originally Posted by OND

Stiffer front bars don't create more front axle grip. They help transfer load to the rear axle under lateral loading, thus increasing rear grip and reducing front grip.

Originally Posted by Gforce

Roll bars affect how quickly the weight transfer torque is put into the springs. Steady state chassis behaviour isn't very important when cornering.
...
By moving roll stiffness forwards you can put more power down earlier in the corner. That's how the stiffer front bar delivers more front axle grip. By allowing higher cornering speeds before the inside rear wheel loses traction.
...
Roll bars transfer spring rate from the outside spring to the inside spring, or put the other way, engage the inside spring to resist compression of the outside spring relative to the inside spring. They work by, in effect, lowering the car. They cannot deliver more grip than the tires can deliver. They do change the point in the suspension travel that the tires are asked to deliver grip, which may or may not increase total grip delivered.

I'd like to apologize to everyone for dragging out this mess and I don't have anything against tuning according to personal handling preferences, but rather one guy pushing his uneducated opinions as facts. I think I've said more than enough in this thread and will refrain from further derailing it.

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by OND

Sure, right, these cars are sooooo tricky to drive in low grip surfaces. It has nothing to do with your lack of driving skills. It has to be the car and its treacherous tendency to oversteer for no reason at all .



This was me on my very first wet trackday trying to powerslide the BRZ for the very first time last November. I am nowhere near as skilled as some people here and after some tries, even I was able to hold slides at angles that would probably cause involuntary defecation for you:

So you are saying Subaru knows their stuff.







And you are also saying Subaru doesn't know what they are talking about.







No, you don't understand how any of this works and the factory does.







We already went through this, so I will just reply to you with quotes. One is a concise and accurate description, the other is meaningless gibberish. I'll let you guess which one is which:













I'd like to apologize to everyone for dragging out this mess and I don't have anything against tuning according to personal handling preferences, but rather one guy pushing his uneducated opinions as facts. I think I've said more than enough in this thread and will refrain from further derailing it.

For what matters I agree with you great driving. I love rain dancing too! How are you mounting your camera? Suction cup at back or some other mounting hardware. I like this view better.

Cheers

Lutfy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by Ernest72

Different drivers can feel different things for the same setup. Some people like a tighter car (understeer), others like a looser car (oversteer). Generally, a looser car is faster than a tighter car. The problem with a loose car is that it may or may not be predictable. All cars are usually pretty tight from the factory because its safe, when the front pushes people slow down. Having the rear end snap out, most people would freak and over compensate one way or the other leading the car to go into the opposite lane or off the road. A neutral car where the rear end comes around nicely and falls in line is what you really want. But a loose car is more fun. In dry and wet conditions my stock BRZ is fun and predictable. In snow it can be tricky but manageable.

Stock BRZ is loose.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by norcalpb

I think you'd love increasing the front spring rates along with increasing front camber. I think the people responding to you are correct that 0 degrees of camber is not good for rotation.

No issue there. I appreciate a good handling car that rides properly. The front springs on my BRZ aren't a problem. The rear springs were just wrong from the factory.

Rotation is an interesting concept. It gets talked about a lot but not by very good racing drivers. F1 drivers never mention how well their car rotates.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by OND

Sure, right, these cars are sooooo tricky to drive in low grip surfaces. It has nothing to do with your lack of driving skills. It has to be the car and its treacherous tendency to oversteer for no reason at all .

This was me on my very first wet trackday trying to powerslide the BRZ for the very first time last November. I am nowhere near as skilled as some people here and after some tries, even I was able to hold slides at angles that would probably cause involuntary defecation for you:

So you are saying Subaru knows their stuff.



And you are also saying Subaru doesn't know what they are talking about.



No, you don't understand how any of this works and the factory does.



We already went through this, so I will just reply to you with quotes. One is a concise and accurate description, the other is meaningless gibberish. I'll let you guess which one is which:






I'd like to apologize to everyone for dragging out this mess and I don't have anything against tuning according to personal handling preferences, but rather one guy pushing his uneducated opinions as facts. I think I've said more than enough in this thread and will refrain from further derailing it.

Apart from your non apology this post is just a lame attempt at having the last word. No Texan can teach any Canadian about power sliding. We do it all winter long just on the morning commute.

Come on up here this winter and I'll treat you to the ride of your life. Just bring a full pack of Depends, they're cheaper in Texas.

PS if I were you I wouldn't put that video up on you tube. And you still haven't explained how anti roll bars work. I just about wet my pants watching you.

Oops, too late. Nice gloves though, they go with the helmet.

Another tip. Never, ever let go of the wheel unless you're about to crash. You do realize you did it completely wrong every single time? A hair away from a tank slapper on every drift. Pathetic, really. Get some proper track lessons is my advice. You seem very young.

[JMon85]

I can slide a 15,000 pound HMMWV better than that .. I mean .. not that I .. ever drifted 15k lbs armored vehicle on purpose of course

But really tho.. why did u cause a stir then post a vid of your dangerous driving habits?

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Gforce

I also fit the MCA traction brackets which every BRZ needs, including from the factory. Those Impreza trailing arm pick up points are just wrong.

They're not wrong, the car just sits too high from the factory. The MCA bracket brings the lower control arm more horizontal to adjust the camber curve. Mr. Tada has allegedly said that the ideal ride height for the 86's rear geometry is 20mm lower than stock. This would achieve a similar shift in the rear camber curve. Apparently the height was increased to pass regulations in certain markets.

[churchx]

And again F1 is brought up. Have you considered to advising several F1 teams on fitting MY2017 brz suspension on their cars so that it makes better and safer to drive F1 cars on streets?

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Apparently the height was increased to pass regulations in certain markets.

Height regulations are not so restrictive. The ability to fit snow chains was the main reason of the stock height.