Need some sensible input... to FI or not - Page 2 - Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community

Summerwolf · 09-01-2016, 09:06 AM

There is no real way to make power unless you go with forced induction.

When you start making power there is a huge increase in likelihood of bending rods.

So, yeah.....

Tcoat · 09-01-2016, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew025

Correct.

No exhaust? No E85? Nothing? Not doubting at all but geez that is quite the increase for just a SC. Maybe I will revisit my original SC plans.

Andrew025 · 09-01-2016, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tcoat

No exhaust? No E85? Nothing? Not doubting at all but geez that is quite the increase for just a SC. Maybe I will revisit my original SC plans.

92 pump gas. Totally stock.

Tcoat · 09-01-2016, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew025

92 pump gas. Totally stock.

JERK This could cost me money. Car is now out of warranty so the gloves can come off.

Andrew025 · 09-01-2016, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tcoat

JERK This could cost me money. Car is now out of warranty so the gloves can come off.

Do it.

#noregrats

JazzleSAURUS · 09-01-2016, 11:17 AM

I think the two main questions are the following:

Will my car still be reliable after I go S/C?

Will my car be as fast as I think I want it to be?

Reliability: Get a good reputable kit from a good reputable manufacture installed by a good reputable shop tuned by a good reputable tuner and keep up on maintenance and you should be in decent shape. Keep in mind it WILL NOT last as long as a stock motor, it adds inherit complexity and risk because you're making more power from the same components. Based on my research and learnings, the stock FA20 is up to the task of a nice bump in power, (The JRSC C30 and Edelbrock kits in stock trim seem to be quite reliable, and make great power.)

Will it be fast enough: These kits will push you back into the seat nicely through the power band. They will be less violent than a turbocharged car like the ST you drove recently. I think if you go to a local autox and try to get a ride along in a few basic supercharged cars you'll get a good idea of what you're getting into.

They will make similar power and be lighter than a 2015 WRX, so you'll be in good shape there if we're using it as a power benchmark. That said, those cars are making some pretty insane power with exhausts and a tune.
EDIT: I double checked, I was thinking of the 'all the killer b parts' 2015 WRX. It still drives nicely with a tune, but killer b is what's up on those cars.

DJCarbine · 09-01-2016, 01:39 PM

My 05 wrx has a surge of torque when the turbo spools at 2500rpm, you do not get that with a supercharger. Down shifting is a must for the FRS with a centrifugal, you do have more torque than stock down low but its nothing like the (very fun) surge of torque a small factory turbo will give you.

If you wind the engine out at every shift you will be greeted with power that only continues to climb as you near redline. Very different driving characteristics IMO, I switch between the two when I get bored of whichever I am driving. Completely different experiences.

The SC will be as reliable as you can install/pay attention to details. Correct belt length/quality belt, alignment of pulleys, checking SC oil/engine oil at regular intervals.... if you are OCD like me, reliability stays the same. I had a belt failure on my system with a smaller pulley and incorrectly sized belt. This was my fault for running a belt that was the incorrect length. It walked off a pulley and shredded itself.

I now check my oil/belt weekly and have not seen any loss of fluids/belt wear beyond normal. If you decide to track the car and go with a vortech unit, look for the competition kit that has an engine oil fed supercharger. It is possible to overheat the "street" kit due to the low volume of self-contained SC oil. No issue on the street, and some people have tracked successfully.... but better safe than sorry. Engine oil cooler would be nice as well.

As far as turbocharger "violence" in acceleration/torque.... I had the stock turbo at factory pressure, tuned it to 20psi across the rev range, and finally went with a larger turbo that comfortably gives you around 300whp and a forged higher compression motor build. Even when this thing finally spools by 3500-3700 and gives you a surge of torque in first that will almost break the tires loose, its not "violent". Also, the gas pedal is not an on-off switch

With a turbocharger and boost by gear/electronic boost control, you can control the amount/rate of power increase to not be so sudden.

TL;DR

It will be as reliable as you want it to be, there will always be something faster than you.
Also turbochargers can tune their pressures with the proper control solenoids/tune, which gives you expanded possibilities. Supercharger boost is regulated by engine RPM/pulley size.

CSG Mike · 09-01-2016, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JazzleSAURUS

I think the two main questions are the following:

Will my car still be reliable after I go S/C?

Will my car be as fast as I think I want it to be?

Reliability: Get a good reputable kit from a good reputable manufacture installed by a good reputable shop tuned by a good reputable tuner and keep up on maintenance and you should be in decent shape. Keep in mind it WILL NOT last as long as a stock motor, it adds inherit complexity and risk because you're making more power from the same components. Based on my research and learnings, the stock FA20 is up to the task of a nice bump in power, (The JRSC C30 and Edelbrock kits in stock trim seem to be quite reliable, and make great power.)

Will it be fast enough: These kits will push you back into the seat nicely through the power band. They will be less violent than a turbocharged car like the ST you drove recently. I think if you go to a local autox and try to get a ride along in a few basic supercharged cars you'll get a good idea of what you're getting into.

They will make similar power and be lighter than a 2015 WRX, so you'll be in good shape there if we're using it as a power benchmark. That said, those cars are making some pretty insane power with exhausts and a tune.

JazzleSAURUS · 09-01-2016, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

That was enough of a callout to make me double check. I was thinking about the "add Killer B everything" kit.

I love Killer B products

Dadhawk · 09-01-2016, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tcoat

JERK This could cost me money. Car is now out of warranty so the gloves can come off.

Edelbrook claims 242hp with just their stage 1 supercharger and tune so it seems reasonable to me.

nikitopo · 09-01-2016, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tcoat

JERK This could cost me money. Car is now out of warranty so the gloves can come off.

The guy installing superchargers here told me that you just need a good oil cooler (not the water based ones) and to use a thicker oil. Nothing else.

nikitopo · 09-01-2016, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

There is no real way to make power unless you go with forced induction.

There is a way to make power and in general go faster, but very few know how. Check below the only NA car among the monsters:

Additionally, it is an expensive direction. Value for money is to go FI.

CSG Mike · 09-01-2016, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikitopo

There is a way to make power and in general go faster, but very few know how. Check below the only NA car among the monsters:

Additionally, it is an expensive direction. Value for money is to go FI.

Do I need to remind you what *replicating* that car would cost?

CSG Mike · 09-01-2016, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JazzleSAURUS

That was enough of a callout to make me double check. I was thinking about the "add Killer B everything" kit.

I love Killer B products

And that, is why I daily drive a WRX.

09-01-2016, 11:17 AM	#20
JazzleSAURUS Senior Member Join Date: May 2015 Drives: 15 BRZ LTD, 05 FXT Location: Western MA Posts: 1,032 Thanks: 561 Thanked 560 Times in 353 Posts Mentioned: 10 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	I think the two main questions are the following: Will my car still be reliable after I go S/C? Will my car be as fast as I think I want it to be? Reliability: Get a good reputable kit from a good reputable manufacture installed by a good reputable shop tuned by a good reputable tuner and keep up on maintenance and you should be in decent shape. Keep in mind it WILL NOT last as long as a stock motor, it adds inherit complexity and risk because you're making more power from the same components. Based on my research and learnings, the stock FA20 is up to the task of a nice bump in power, (The JRSC C30 and Edelbrock kits in stock trim seem to be quite reliable, and make great power.) Will it be fast enough: These kits will push you back into the seat nicely through the power band. They will be less violent than a turbocharged car like the ST you drove recently. I think if you go to a local autox and try to get a ride along in a few basic supercharged cars you'll get a good idea of what you're getting into. They will make similar power and be lighter than a 2015 WRX, so you'll be in good shape there if we're using it as a power benchmark. That said, those cars are making some pretty insane power with exhausts and a tune. EDIT: I double checked, I was thinking of the 'all the killer b parts' 2015 WRX. It still drives nicely with a tune, but killer b is what's up on those cars. __________________ SOLD: 2015 WRB BRZ Limited ('02 WRX BBS, S-04's, Stoptech Sport pads, MXP SP, AVO drop in filter, Mishimoto Intake tube, decatted header, OFT 93 Stage 2 EL Tune, Kartboy rear shifter bushing, Whiteline transmission and subframe lockout bushings, ST Coilovers, SPC Camber bolts w/smaller crash bolt, SPC LCA's & SPC Toe Arm bushings, Red TOMs, TRD Wing.) Last edited by JazzleSAURUS; 09-01-2016 at 02:17 PM.

09-01-2016, 01:39 PM	#21
DJCarbine Thupercharged Join Date: Mar 2013 Drives: 2013 FR-S Location: La Grange Park, IL. Posts: 1,501 Thanks: 116 Thanked 751 Times in 439 Posts Mentioned: 23 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	My 05 wrx has a surge of torque when the turbo spools at 2500rpm, you do not get that with a supercharger. Down shifting is a must for the FRS with a centrifugal, you do have more torque than stock down low but its nothing like the (very fun) surge of torque a small factory turbo will give you. If you wind the engine out at every shift you will be greeted with power that only continues to climb as you near redline. Very different driving characteristics IMO, I switch between the two when I get bored of whichever I am driving. Completely different experiences. The SC will be as reliable as you can install/pay attention to details. Correct belt length/quality belt, alignment of pulleys, checking SC oil/engine oil at regular intervals.... if you are OCD like me, reliability stays the same. I had a belt failure on my system with a smaller pulley and incorrectly sized belt. This was my fault for running a belt that was the incorrect length. It walked off a pulley and shredded itself. I now check my oil/belt weekly and have not seen any loss of fluids/belt wear beyond normal. If you decide to track the car and go with a vortech unit, look for the competition kit that has an engine oil fed supercharger. It is possible to overheat the "street" kit due to the low volume of self-contained SC oil. No issue on the street, and some people have tracked successfully.... but better safe than sorry. Engine oil cooler would be nice as well. As far as turbocharger "violence" in acceleration/torque.... I had the stock turbo at factory pressure, tuned it to 20psi across the rev range, and finally went with a larger turbo that comfortably gives you around 300whp and a forged higher compression motor build. Even when this thing finally spools by 3500-3700 and gives you a surge of torque in first that will almost break the tires loose, its not "violent". Also, the gas pedal is not an on-off switch With a turbocharger and boost by gear/electronic boost control, you can control the amount/rate of power increase to not be so sudden. TL;DR It will be as reliable as you want it to be, there will always be something faster than you. Also turbochargers can tune their pressures with the proper control solenoids/tune, which gives you expanded possibilities. Supercharger boost is regulated by engine RPM/pulley size. __________________ 2013 FRS Vortech V3 11psi Revworks UEL - PLM Overpipe - MOTIV catted frontpipe - Invidia Q300 2019 Series.Grey STI - Stage1+ SF

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09-01-2016, 09:06 AM	#15
Summerwolf Panda Trueno Join Date: Jan 2015 Drives: No twin now. Location: North Indiana Posts: 3,349 Thanks: 2,113 Thanked 2,409 Times in 1,332 Posts Mentioned: 17 Post(s) Tagged: 2 Thread(s)	There is no real way to make power unless you go with forced induction. When you start making power there is a huge increase in likelihood of bending rods. So, yeah.....

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