VW US recall over emissions test cheating

[Special_K]

Originally Posted by why?

Love some rationality. Even NOAA admits they have not seen an actual increase in temperatures in the past couple of decades. And yes, I 100% think any actual changes are because not only the sun, but the cosmic neighborhood we are travelling through. There is nothing we can do to change any of that. We simply do not have enough actual records we can trust to know what happens, and it will take around 1000 years or for us as a species to even start to having a chance.

It would also be nice for a scientist to simply admit that they really have no idea what is going on. Far too many pop scientists or science fans seem to act like humans know everything about everything. We know nearly nothing about how the global climate of our planet works. Every single so called climate model is 50% guesses. When you input bad data you can only get bad results.

Because I don't believe our government is all knowing or always right. When a government regulation is wrong and evil, we should ignore it and fight to change it. We don't enact laws or regulations, unelected clueless morons do. That is why there are so many idiotic alphabet government agencies, they are not accountable to anyone for anything, and our congress has illegally vacated what they were suppose to do and given it to unelected usurpers who have no right doing any of what they are doing.

...TIL Senator James Inhofe drives a series blue BRZ, and posts to car forums under the name "why?"

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

[pedant]
Sorry, your statement doesn't make sense. You are stating two different things.
"Scientific laws are made to be broken." A then B
"This is why they call it quantum theory, not quantum law." B then C
[/pedant]

You missed my point. The point is that the "laws" are not really laws. They are theories. People who call things laws of science are either abusing the word "law" or are using it in the limited sense that applies to science.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

.

Who are these non-elected usurpers you're talking about? Are you talking about corporations? Or some wicked cabal?

Now we wait and see if I disappe...

[HachiEnam]

Sorry to redirect the debate on climate change, but with all the advancement in clean diesel technology and the use of diesel exhaust fluid, would it be possible for diesel to be as clean as petrol?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by HachiEnam

Sorry to redirect the debate on climate change, but with all the advancement in clean diesel technology and the use of diesel exhaust fluid, would it be possible for diesel to be as clean as petrol?

Yes. And it isn't that far away. But it is still a non renewable fossil fuel so in the long run it doesn't help.

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by why?

No way am I saying other countries do everything right. That is silly. However there are cases where certain countries do things that benefit their citizens, and we should look to adopt those things for our country because it would benefit all of us. Actually allowing modern technology to be able to function is one of those things we should allow.

I am not picking on you but you do realize the whole origin of this thread and the drama that spurred it is because VW's "modern technology" did not function as advertised? It turns out that they are bigger polluters than anyone imagined and even their "modern technology" that was designed to hide that fact failed them in the end.

[HachiEnam]

Just out of curiosity, is this affecting the way you guys view Volkswagen? I've always felt that way with the larger car manufacturers for example the GM ignition crisis.

[Special_K]

Originally Posted by HachiEnam

Just out of curiosity, is this affecting the way you guys view Volkswagen? I've always felt that way with the larger car manufacturers for example the GM ignition crisis.

I was talking about this with my 85 y/o boss today and he goes, "Never thought the krauts had it in them! I would have expected this from America, but I've always respected the way Germans approach technology. Hell, I just saw an advertisement the other day from Audi with the slogan, 'Truth in Engineering.' Bet someone's getting fired for that one!"

Needless to say, his remark made me chuckle

[fumanchu1]

For those who wonder why I thanked WHY?. I hadn't laughed so hard in such a long time, delusional people are truly the best.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by fumanchu1

For those who wonder why I thanked WHY?. I hadn't laughed so hard in such a long time, delusional people are truly the best.

Oh don't worry, some of us fully understand the usage of the satirical or even sarcastic thanks!

[Breeeep]

If you honestly bought a diesel vehicle to “help the environment” um... wow. Please do your own research.

By the way, that suppose 10 – 40% number is pretty much bs. I am sure VW's diesels would meet EU regulations if we had decent diesel fuel.

There is a big difference between 10x - 40x and 10% -40%.

VW will pay dearly for allowing a 1000% - 4000% increase in NOx emissions.

[funwheeldrive]

So does this mean they will offer huge discounts? I wouldn't mind picking up a new golf tdi for super cheap.

[why?]

Yes, I know many disagree with my viewpoints. I also know I could be wrong. What's scary is that every single person in this thread that is so 100% sure I am wrong could also be wrong and they are not willing to even contemplate it.

If you thought the last post was long...

Apparently I use Norton Safe Search. Funny I didn't really realize that.

Chinese food tastes good. On to the fun.

Originally Posted by Rampage

I am not picking on you but you do realize the whole origin of this thread and the drama that spurred it is because VW's "modern technology" did not function as advertised? It turns out that they are bigger polluters than anyone imagined and even their "modern technology" that was designed to hide that fact failed them in the end.

the technology vw uses in the USA is totally and completely different than the technology they and many other manufacturers use in Europe.

Originally Posted by HachiEnam

Just out of curiosity, is this affecting the way you guys view Volkswagen? I've always felt that way with the larger car manufacturers for example the GM ignition crisis.

I have a massively negative view of the german brands. Their reliability is horrific and the cost of ownership is bonkers.

Originally Posted by stugray

@why?

WOW quite the diatribe?

Telling ME to do my research about climate OR spacecraft technology? Funny.

Do YOU have a badge that says "Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics"?
Or 20 years in Aerospace engineering building spacecraft?
I am currently building your very next generation of Weather Satellite for you - youre welcome.

I am usually the one who has to remind people that "Antarctica used to be a Rain Forest".
The evidence IS pointing to AGW as being a fact.
Again, if we are wrong and do nothing we might just all die.
If we TRY to do something and turn out to have been wrong IT WAS ONLY DOLLARS that were wasted.
I dont need thousands of words to make that point.

And I laughed out loud! You REALLY think that if we hit VW with an 18 Billion dollar fine, that Germany would declare war? I just blew Monster out of my nose!

Funny you say I wrote a diatribe. I only responded to your diatribe.

Where is your hard data that proves what you call agw? I mean actual data that has not been repeatedly proven completely fabricated or flat out false?

All the evidence I need to say it is a total fraud and sham to make people billionaires is right on this website.

Congratulations on your hard work and being in that field. I hope it is a rewarding and enjoyable one for you.

However as a scientist you especially should know how much research we need to do to actually know what is going on with the global climate. You should also know about all the scandals that are happening with people doing so called climate research. There are people out there that call themselves scientists that are far more interested in politics than living up to what scientists should be. If you are familiar with all the climate models you should know how amazingly unreliable they all are and how we should view them with a grain of salt, not as complete and total facts.

If these plans only cost a total of a few grand, and if any of them were actually honest in their intentions, then yes, it would be only dollars. However even the most conservative money estimates for these plans to reduce the temperature at most 1 degree over 100 of years is tens of trillions. That is not just dollars. That is the literal complete destruction of the economy of the world for the at best a maybe. I think we need more hard data before we commit to something that drastic.

And as someone who knows the planet changes, where is the data that what it might become is a massive negative thing? Even if I say our planet is warming 1 or 2 degrees in the next century, there is zero data anywhere that says that will end our civilization. You know there were times when Britain was the wine capital of Europe, not France. Why is that a negative? The Sahara was once a lush and vibrant area, not a desert? Why is that a negative?

I am glad that you laughed, there is not enough laughing going on in this world. At this point literally anything could happen. Our world is not stable, and there are many people very angry at the US for what has been happening to our currency. Even insane sounding ideas should be said out loud. No one believed so much crap ever could happen in the past before it actually did happen. Never rule anything out.

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

1/ Couching your words in hyperbole does your argument no favours.
2/ This statement alone leads me to believe you have no understanding of scientific methodology.

Not hyperbole unfortunately. The people in our government right now are literally terrorizing Americans with unjust laws and actions. Have you seen all the news stories about police seizing peoples property with no warrant and no crime committed? Supreme Court rules against EPAHow about the EPA calling any tiny stream or mud puddle a wetland and seizing private property or making private property totally useless?
Or the fact that the EPA deliberately polluted the Colorado River, even after the scientific community told them exactly that would happen?

I wish those stories were not the tip of the iceberg.
I am 100% sure the scientific method does not contain a step where scientists fabricate data.

Originally Posted by Atropine

Runaway greenhouse effect...a la the planet Venus.
People should really look it up.
Global Warming is real...we should try to curtail it...but it is a very tough line to toe.
I am a conservative voter...who gets annoyed when people deny global warming...it is not theory...it is proven scientific fact now. My "team" (conservatives) who deny global warming make me facepalm...

Because you know the fact Venus is so close to the sun has zero effect. Funny, but many people have strong data the earth is in fact not warming. Many others have facts that the temperature of the planet earth is linked directly with the sun, and the temperature of the sun does vary.

Originally Posted by chezzy79

Even if you assume that AGW wasn't accelerated by human influences, the adverse effects of pollution to wildlife as well as human health are more than obvious, and there's nothing wrong with trying to keep down pollution.

I 100% agree that reasonable actions should be taken to make the earth a wonderful place for humanity. I just think that when regulations start hurting our country and our economy something is very wrong, and we need to figure out what people gain for such actions. Or who these regulations make wealthy.

Originally Posted by chezzy79

Umm... do you know what "peer-reviewed" means? By "scientist", we don't mean your uncle who used to live in your parent's basement who thinks the moon landing was a hoax.

I'm just going to leave this here. Peer review has never been what anyone thought it really was. And did you know the hoax moon landing rumor was started by NASA, at the actual press conference held when the astronauts landed? At least that is the best thing I have ever heard to explain the entire moon hoax landing ideas.

Originally Posted by chezzy79

He criticized the idea of Pascal's Wager and not religious believers in general, which you clearly do not seem to know what it is. Either way, it seems like you are religious, but you're bat-shit insane if you actually think it's a "basis for the entire western way of life."

Yes, I am familiar. It is used to attack all religious people constantly. You are bat-shit insane if you think freedom and liberty come from nowhere. You are bat-shit insane if you think almost every government in human history before Christianity took hold didn't also have a mandated state sponsored religion with the ruler also at the exact center of the religion. Hell Egyptians were forced to believe their rulers were gods! Our ideals, our freedoms, and our way of life would not be possible if we had a state sponsored religion that would murder anyone who even thought of openly disagreeing with them. The first time in human history anyone even thought religion and government should be separate is when Jesus said it. And even then it took a long time before it actually happened. If you think that is wrong, check out modern day theocracies and see how they compare.

Originally Posted by chezzy79

Frankly, I can't believe someone would allow himself to be spoon-fed this much bullshit when you can find the truth with a simple Google search....

And yet for some reason you totally and completely refuse to research anything that opposes your viewpoints. Just keep pretending nothing at all exists outside of your extremely narrow mindset.

Originally Posted by Atropine

Suppose you are right due to there not being a true way to have a "control" for this.

But I do get tired of people doing the "we need more research before we decide this is true...oh and until...business as usual".

This video kinda explains what I am talking about really well.

Way to post one of the most clueless people out there. Are you going to post Al Gore's idiotic and completely fabricated movie next? Do you know Al is making billions off people who buy his schtick? Pretty sure that is the only motive he needs.

It has not been "business as usual" for decades. Modern vehicles pollute less at wot than 60's era vehicles did when they were turned off. However if you really believe the global climate matters China and India are polluting at a rate we will never be able to fix or cover for.

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Believe it or not (see the irony?) I have no issue with religion per se but like all institutions religions' values are expressed through people. Christianity's values have changed with the times along with people's values. Stoning was acceptable under the right circumstances, judgements carried out during the Inquistion, witch hunts, the Crusades.To use the expression "Judeo-Christian values" is somewhat pointless given how those those values have changed throughout history.

Only when you purposefully ignore and misunderstand what is being said. The freedom you take for granted in questioning religion literally came about because of Jesus. He was the very first person to ever even think of mentioning that state and religion should be separate. How revolutionary that concept was in a world where the state and its ruler is always at the exact center of a mandated state run religion cannot be overemphasized. The power those rulers had to murder anyone they chose and fabricate evidence they were conspiring against the state religion cannot be emphasized enough. There was literally no freedom or liberty back then for many human beings. Even after Jesus it has been hard maintaining that freedom. But ever since that freedom has been granted, our world has flourished beyond belief. The Renaissance and everything that happened after was due to the state allowing people the freedom to do as they wish and not follow every little tenet of every state religion.

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

Scientific laws are made to be broken. This is why they call it quantum theory, not quantum law. Science is a method, not a set of agreed upon theories. If you follow the method, you're a scientist. Of course bias slips in constantly. People lie and fudge all the time, especially when paid by oil companies.

Because so called scientists that earn every single penny they will ever see from governments never ever lie. Right. Oh wait... And amazing you attack energy companies, the ones that will benefit the most from literally any future way our energy sources go. No idea why you think oil companies are not heavily invested and researching every possible way our current and future energy options could go.

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

My opinion is that it is too late to change the damage that climate change will cause. That is, I think we are past the tipping point at which we will enter increasing temperatures for the foreseeable future. The tundra permafrost has already starting melting and once that methane is released we are stuffed.

Why do you think a higher temperature is a bad thing? I totally 100% disagree with every thing you said, but I really want to find this actual scientific data that says a higher temperature will be a catastrophic thing.

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

This seems the worthwhile track. We may not be able to stop catastrophic climate events from happening (like the thawing of the permafrost), but we can invest to educate those that someday might with future technologies.

Who knows, maybe in 2050 one of our newly lifetime STEM educated grandchildren will invent an air scrubber that traps, extracts and transforms excessive methane and CO2 from the air and turn it into something benign.

"Or" maybe a companies like VW, Koch Industries, and EXXON/Mobil will conclude that it's simply cheaper to go on a decade long media blitz to convince people that climate change is a bunch of hooey and the free market regulates itself in a safe and responsible way. While public agencies like CARB and the EPA are freedom terrorists looking to inact Sharia law on our Judeo-Christian (Native American killing) patriots. Ok, that's not an "Or", those kinds of PR campaigns are pretty much guaranteed to play throughout the fight to not pollute the shit out of our tiny blue marble island in space. Those with half a brain will just fight back harder. Could anything be more important? Well maybe, but that's scientific thinking that leaves the door open for it.

Not sure why you think those companies care. The energy companies are in the best position to totally and completely dominate any new energy tech we find. VW as a massive company will dominate any new transportation we create. Koch Industries is a behemoth of a company that will profit no matter what happens.
Every single one of those companies stand to profit billions, if not trillions if we as a society choose to abandon all our current tech and switch to "green" tech.
No idea why anyone attacks them as the enemy.

Originally Posted by stugray

There is a big misunderstanding about this topic and you hit it right there.
There is absolutely no question about global warming.
It is widely accepted (except among the republicans) among scientists.
The question is : IS the global warming caused by humans (i.e. Anthropogenic global warming).
There are many forcing functions, the sun is the biggest one.
Are we positive that the sun hasn't started putting out just 0.01% more heat in the last 50 years?
Hard to be sure because we have only had spacecraft for about that long monitoring it.
And it is hard to compare datasets because the instruments that record that data are not all the same.

This is false. The only absolute sure thing about global warming is that scientists who stand to profit billions from it have been falsifying, and re-falsifying data for decades, if not longer.

But even if we ignore that bit the biggest contributor to global warming is water vapor. We literally cannot do anything about that.

Even if we ignore that bit even the least expensive plans are going to cost tens of trillions. And the most aggressive plans have a shot at reducing global temperatures 1 degree over 100 years. The world's temperate oscillates more than that. Obama's latest plan will reduce the temps by fifteen one-thousandths of a degree

But even if we ignore that, there is no concrete proof a 2 or 3 degree warming will destroy the planet or our civilization. Human civilization has thrived in times where the global temperature has been much warmer. It has thrived when global temperatures has been much cooler.

What we do have is a few very rich people like Al Gore, and very rich companies like GE, that are making at least billions, if not trillions off of pedaling global warming. That alone should make everyone pause and do a double check of everything.GE makes billions.

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Ok look. The government is not some mysterious "evil" faction oppressing you. Our government is a body of people (representatives), chosen by us, to represent us. Whomever chooses to participate most actively in the selection of those representatives gets their agenda represented best. In our case, that has been the wealthy. When you stop divorcing yourself from the responsibility of participation in the civic process by speaking of the government as "them", you will then have taken a more productive step to advancing your agenda.

You are part of the process of enacting laws and regulations. The people you have either chosen or allowed to be chosen don't represent your beliefs. Now comes the part where you participate and organize to get people elected that do represent your beliefs. This works.

We have so many "idiotic alphabet agencies" because a large populace has so many things that need to be taken care of and they need names. What would you call them instead? Your quote sounds like a "talking point". You call them idiotic, but I have a feeling you have very little understanding of what they do. Yes, those agencies are accountable to the representatives we have chosen to oversee them. If those representatives are doing a bad job, then get involved in the process and have new representatives elected that you think will do better.

Who are these non-elected usurpers you're talking about? Are you talking about corporations or some wicked cabal?

Thank you for the civics class lesson. I am sure someone somewhere didn't know that.

What you say is what is suppose to happen. Unfortunately our elected representatives don't write or create many laws or regulations, or did you miss the entire Nancy Pelosi," We have to pass it to find out what is in it," bs? Even worse, laws are passed without being written, and congress lets some unelected lackey from the EPA, ATF, or other garbage alphabet soup agency actually write in the details. Do you really think that is our government working as intended?

Why are you so certain any of these agencies should actually exist?
A large populace does not need to be taken care of. They can take care of themselves just fine. Does the Railroad Retirement Board really need a swat team? Kind of odd, don't you think?

The alphabet soup all might have started out with noble ideals, but they stopped paying attention to that years ago. They exist solely because they do not have accountability to the voter. Politicians can go back to voters and claim to have nothing to do with it, or politicians can figure out who needs to vote how for a bill they all want to pass so that certain politicians can go back home and proclaim they voted against a bill that still passed.

The usurpers are the alphabet group of agencies. Have you ever really tried to dig into the budget? Did you even know you could? Do you think maybe like the IRS tax code everything is written intentionally to obfuscate instead of enlighten? Or how about the people that pay our politicians? They are all sponsored by tons of different people. Donald Trump even openly admitted our system is beyond broken on national tv. John McCain has done his damnedest to destroy the first amendment and make sure only wealthy politicians could ever actually get support to run in elections.

Our system is corrupt and in need of repair. There are very few people that actually think our system of government is running exactly as it should.

You do condescending really well. How many candidates have you actually helped elect? Or do you assume because you haven't I haven't? Have you ever walked into a candidates office and made phone calls for them? Do you assume because you disagree with what I say I must be clueless and not actually understand the system and its intricacies? Because God forbid someone that does not hold your exact views could ever actually have a brain or maybe have an actual point. Nope, only you know everything and there are zero actual other viewpoints worth even ever thinking about. We all should conform to your every view no matter what.

Originally Posted by Special_K

...TIL Senator James Inhofe drives a series blue BRZ, and posts to car forums under the name "why?"

Yes, let's take someone so far out of context and make fun of him. Good job on that one. You should be proud of acting like a bully and thug. We should all just throw baseless insults at everyone instead of trying to actually have a conversation.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Yes. And it isn't that far away. But it is still a non renewable fossil fuel so in the long run it doesn't help.

Or it might be here, if we just lower the sulfur levels in our gas to European standards.

Do you know who came up with the idea of the theory of fossil fuels? Did you know there are scientists with other theories? Did you know the same scientist that came up with the idea later changed his mind?Fossil fuels found on Titan I didn't know dinosaurs had spacecraft. Wow. Fossil Fuel theory might be wrong.

Originally Posted by fumanchu1

For those who wonder why I thanked WHY?. I hadn't laughed so hard in such a long time, delusional people are truly the best.

Because you are so omniscient you could never ever be wrong about anything. Ever.

Originally Posted by Breeeep

There is a big difference between 10x - 40x and 10% -40%.

VW will pay dearly for allowing a 1000% - 4000% increase in NOx emissions.

Not so sure they will. We'll see.

[TylerLieberman]

@why? Seems very confident in VW.

He should invest all of his assets in stock