VW US recall over emissions test cheating

[Captain Snooze]

I wouldn't have thought an organisation the size of VW would consider such a thing.
http://mashable.com/2015/09/18/volks.../#9OlMT2twwZkp
http://www.informationweek.com/gover...d/d-id/1322257

[why?]

Why? The EPA and Carb are literally terrorists. VW understands we hate them all and wish they would mind their own business. It is no surprise VW is one of the very few manufacturers that sells diesels in the US, our idiotic emissions are created to make them almost impossible to make legal, and VW has a huge stake is selling diesel vehicles.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by why?

Why? The EPA and Carb are literally terrorists. VW understands we hate them all and wish they would mind their own business. It is no surprise VW is one of the very few manufacturers that sells diesels in the US, our idiotic emissions are created to make them almost impossible to make legal, and VW has a huge stake is selling diesel vehicles.

[Mr.ac]

Read that news last night. Pretty smart stuff also kind of simple fix. There seems to be some lots of politics behind this, no surprise.

[why?]

Originally Posted by Mr.ac

Read that news last night. Pretty smart stuff also kind of simple fix. There seems to be some lots of politics behind this, no surprise.

Yup, epa and carb don't want diesels in US passenger cars. No actual real reason, but then none of what they do has a real reason besides," I want it that way."

Seriously all they would need to do is adopt European gas standards and that would make 80% of the difference. Our emissions standards make zero sense for this country. Pretty sure Europe is a hell of a lot more packed in, yet they have standards that are actually slightly less strict than ours, but they have much better quality diesel gas.

The EPA and carb pretend passenger automobile pollution actually matters and hope you completely ignore the changes in technology for factories especially, but also everything else that pollutes. Not to mention they ignore large trucks, busses, etc, things that actually pollute much more than passenger cars.

I hope VW can go on the offensive and we can get the EPA and carb closed down. Both are doing immeasurable harm to our country because the people involved love having power over others even though they have absolutely no idea what they are doing.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by why?

The EPA and carb pretend passenger automobile pollution actually matters

I mean you're not totally wrong but I have to ask if you've ever experienced a smog choked city? I've been lucky to have not been born when LA air was literally unbreathable, I've heard stories where it literally hurt to be outside a few decades ago. And it's still really bad imo, there are strong statistics for asthma cases in LA that are likely smog related.

They are definitely needed and there are still improvements to be made.

[Mr.ac]

I lived in la when it was brown haze days. Smog standards didn't help. What did help was the cash for clunkers program. Everyone got rid of their 60's and 70's pos cars for newer cars.
I remember my dad got rid of his old pos Buick station wagon for a nice '83 Volvo wagon.

[pushrod]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

I wouldn't have thought an organisation the size of VW would consider such a thing.

My guess is that the team of engineers responsible for this made the decision autonomously. It's unlikely that the execs had any idea, until now of course.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by why?

The EPA and carb pretend passenger automobile pollution actually matters and hope you completely ignore the changes in technology for factories especially, but also everything else that pollutes. Not to mention they ignore large trucks, busses, etc, things that actually pollute much more than passenger cars.
.

Not true and really not true.
The reductions for factories get heavier every year and the list of outright banned materials are making it harder and harder to make good yet cost effective parts. Our paint is a good example of this since the government is reducing the permitted VOCs faster that the tech is being developed to replace them. Industry is truly struggling to meet the new requirements and this is why many things are being made off shore where the laws are less stringent.


As far as heavy vehicles go, the EPA started rolling out graduated requirements starting back in 2006. The final stage of this plan was in 2011 and the required emissions were at, or below, those required for passenger cars in most jurisdictions. This drove the price of trucks up by 10 to 15% for the 2011 model year but created a huge run (we couldn't keep up with parts demand) for the 2010s. I know it doesn't appear as such when you see that black smoke rolling out of a truck exhaust but believe it or not (I am sure many won't believe it) the actual emissions in that smoke are reduced as much as 60% of the pre 2006 ones.


Ps - The above is not theory or something I read about on the internet but direct knowledge from 27 years in EH&S for the auto parts manufacturing game with 9 of those spent in the heavy vehicle parts manufacturing realm.

[why?]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I mean you're not totally wrong but I have to ask if you've ever experienced a smog choked city? I've been lucky to have not been born when LA air was literally unbreathable, I've heard stories where it literally hurt to be outside a few decades ago. And it's still really bad imo, there are strong statistics for asthma cases in LA that are likely smog related.

They are definitely needed and there are still improvements to be made.

Smog is not automobile related. cities also have tons of industry, power plants, etc throwing up tons and tons of pollution. A few factories will spew more pollution into the air then tens of thousands of automobiles. You should see the difference between what factories can do now from what they use to be able to do. And if smog was totally vehicle related why do semi trucks and buses have zero standards? Both pollute a ton more than vehicles and they are totally unregulated.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Not true and really not true.
The reductions for factories get heavier every year and the list of outright banned materials are making it harder and harder to make good yet cost effective parts. Our paint is a good example of this since the government is reducing the permitted VOCs faster that the tech is being developed to replace them. Industry is truly struggling to meet the new requirements and this is why many things are being made off shore where the laws are less stringent.


As far as heavy vehicles go, the EPA started rolling out graduated requirements starting back in 2006. The final stage of this plan was in 2011 and the required emissions were at, or below, those required for passenger cars in most jurisdictions. This drove the price of trucks up by 10 to 15% for the 2011 model year but created a huge run (we couldn't keep up with parts demand) for the 2010s. I know it doesn't appear as such when you see that black smoke rolling out of a truck exhaust but believe it or not (I am sure many won't believe it) the actual emissions in that smoke are reduced as much as 60% of the pre 2006 ones.


Ps - The above is not theory or something I read about on the internet but direct knowledge from 27 years in EH&S for the auto parts manufacturing game with 9 of those spent in the heavy vehicle parts manufacturing realm.

Yes, the reductions for factories get heavier and heavier. That is what really reduces smog and pollution. That is what I am saying. They are too extreme frankly, but I believe that is part of the plan. The people in charge don't want any of this type of stuff in this country, they somehow think we can survive with zero industry. Some regulation is this area is necessary because they are 100% responsible for pollution and terrible air quality in large cities.

What type of heavy vehicles are you talking about? Semi's and buses? Or something else? I'll be honest and say it is moronic to put any smog restrictions on semi's since they are literally the backbone of the US economy, and making the cost of running them more expensive will make everything in the US more expensive, as we are all seeing in everything we buy since gas has been made more expensive.

I believe the only reason to put such stringent standards on passenger automobiles is to drive the costs up. Same thing for the idiot requirements for all the electronic nannies and other governmental regulations. Some regulations should exist for the safety of the consumer, but a majority of regulations in the USA are 100% unnecessary and serve to wreck our economy. For some reason people totally ignore the manufacturers costs to meet regulations when they talk about how expensive automobiles have become.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by why?

Smog is not automobile related. cities also have tons of industry, power plants, etc throwing up tons and tons of pollution. A few factories will spew more pollution into the air then tens of thousands of automobiles. You should see the difference between what factories can do now from what they use to be able to do. And if smog was totally vehicle related why do semi trucks and buses have zero standards? Both pollute a ton more than vehicles and they are totally unregulated.



Yes, the reductions for factories get heavier and heavier. That is what really reduces smog and pollution. That is what I am saying. They are too extreme frankly, but I believe that is part of the plan. The people in charge don't want any of this type of stuff in this country, they somehow think we can survive with zero industry. Some regulation is this area is necessary because they are 100% responsible for pollution and terrible air quality in large cities.

What type of heavy vehicles are you talking about? Semi's and buses? Or something else? I'll be honest and say it is moronic to put any smog restrictions on semi's since they are literally the backbone of the US economy, and making the cost of running them more expensive will make everything in the US more expensive, as we are all seeing in everything we buy since gas has been made more expensive.

I believe the only reason to put such stringent standards on passenger automobiles is to drive the costs up. Same thing for the idiot requirements for all the electronic nannies and other governmental regulations. Some regulations should exist for the safety of the consumer, but a majority of regulations in the USA are 100% unnecessary and serve to wreck our economy. For some reason people totally ignore the manufacturers costs to meet regulations when they talk about how expensive automobiles have become.

Semis, buses, stake trucks, etc are all heavy vehicles. And yes the cost of purchasing, maintaining and running them went way up. Put many smaller companies right out of business.
No the regulations are not there to drive costs up. They are truly intended to help the environment which they actually do. It may not seem like it since the change is subtle and gradual but things are indeed better then even 30-40 years ago. I have no clue how old you are but if you experienced the stinking, choking horror of being stuck in traffic back in the early 70s you would understand what those regulations have done. Passenger cars may not be the main cause of issues but they are certainly in the top 5.

[why?]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Semis, buses, stake trucks, etc are all heavy vehicles. And yes the cost of purchasing, maintaining and running them went way up. Put many smaller companies right out of business.
No the regulations are not there to drive costs up. They are truly intended to help the environment which they actually do. It may not seem like it since the change is subtle and gradual but things are indeed better then even 30-40 years ago. I have no clue how old you are but if you experienced the stinking, choking horror of being stuck in traffic back in the early 70s you would understand what those regulations have done. Passenger cars may not be the main cause of issues but they are certainly in the top 5.

Didn't know that. Yes, the air quality is better. At some point however the price you pay is way too much. At this point a modern car pollutes less at WOT than 60's eras cars did when they were just sitting still turned off.

You are also arguing that companies would not simply regulate themselves. We know government bureaucrats do not work for car manufacturers. As we saw with volvo a few years ago, companies will choose to make cars that the market wants without government interference.

The simple cost of obeying the regulations in the US is why we don't get a ton of vehicles sold in Europe and Japan, which both also have regulations. Maybe all these countries should get together and come up with one set of standards to keep costs as low as possible.

So while some regulation is necessary, we are way past that point and have been for a while. I do believe the people running things right now hate the fact that people can jump in car and go anywhere in the country they want to. They'd prefer us all living in slums with no hope of going anywhere. Too many regulations hurts everyone. Like you mention with idiotic paint regulations. They don't do that for pollution, they do it because they want to stress the industry beyond the breaking point and have everyone go out of business. Far too many government bureaucrats love that they can pick and choose who wins and loses by passing a few regulations. Far too many do it after getting a nice check from certain companies.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by why?

Maybe all these countries should get together and come up with one set of standards to keep costs as low as possible.

The sad part is that the companies would not regulate themselves. Even now there are floods of exception requests and fines for non compliance of regs that have been in place for 10 years or more. The companies want that penny a part profit and if doing something until they get caught gets it for them they will do it.
Over the last 5 years the international community is starting to band together more and more to make regulations global. The VOCs I mentioned before is a great example of that since it is a global standard. This will eventually help the North American industries and the off shore places start to increase in costs. The industry in China and Mexico are no longer the mom and pop sweatshop manufacturing that people picture but real live factories with EH&S standards that meet or even exceed the US.

[ajaxthebetter]

Truth in Engineering.