Am I choosing the right brake pad?

[sprintamx]

I'm a bit late to this conversation, but I can offer some personal experience with effective compromise choices. This assumes you're not interested in swapping pads from street to track and back again, and assumes you're not doing 2-3 or more track events per month. Any more than that, and if you do that consistently, then put some serious thought into a BBK for longevity of the consumables, cost-effectiveness and braking performance, of course.

My sweet-spot compromise set-up:

OEM size Centric / Stop Tech rotors, which you can get slotted if you'd like. If slotted, they have a 126.xxx model designation, or you can get a plain surface but high-carbon configuration in a 125.xxxx designation. These discs work well and you can expect 10+ hard days out of them. They're easily found for $50 - $80 depending on the seller and time of year.

Fluid: Motul RBF 600 is a good cost-effective fluid for your typical 25-30 minute DE stint. Go with the Torque 700 if you think you need more heat capacity and don't mind the price; it's an excellent fluid. I use Motul in the BRZ for light track duty, and bleed before every event. Works just fine. I use the Torque in my race car.

Pads: I first used Winmax 4 pads. Good on the track; so-so on the street. Consistent and linear bite, modulates well, wears very fast. I'm now on Ferodo DS2500 pads. A bit better for my braking style on track than the Winmax 4, and better on the street. Also, they're less expensive. They consistently bite in a linear fashion whether braking early or late and I think they are an excellent drivers' school pad.

Brake lines are stock.

So, that's an intentional street/track setup for the occasional multi-day track event, with the expectation of more street driving than track driving. The braking is strong and consistent on tight, fast and relatively short tracks with closely spaced 125-70 mph and 110-80 and 110-55 braking zones, with a variety of other braking operations thrown in the mix. I do notice some degradation after 20 minutes in 110 F or higher on track temps, but after backing off slightly the system recovers well. I have yet to boil the Motul fluid, which I used to boil all the damn time in a Carrera.

As they say, YMMV.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

I didn't realize track people WEREN'T giving a quick bleed/top-up at every event?

I know tons of people with everything from Terminator's (03-04 Cobra) to Miata's, E90 M3s that track on ATE (including myself) with a much lower boiling point than the RBF stuff (think 536 dry).

If you're boiling 600° degree fluid on street tires with proper pads, you're on the brakes too softly for too long (by doing this you give the brakes less time to cool down between applications, so while you're putting the same thermal energy into them, they end up with less time to shed that heat) vs proper threshold braking.

Or you're a semi-pro on a track that destroys brakes.

Well considering he canyons regularly with me... or is it me that canyons regularly with him?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by sprintamx

I'm a bit late to this conversation, but I can offer some personal experience with effective compromise choices. This assumes you're not interested in swapping pads from street to track and back again, and assumes you're not doing 2-3 or more track events per month. Any more than that, and if you do that consistently, then put some serious thought into a BBK for longevity of the consumables, cost-effectiveness and braking performance, of course.

My sweet-spot compromise set-up:

OEM size Centric / Stop Tech rotors, which you can get slotted if you'd like. If slotted, they have a 126.xxx model designation, or you can get a plain surface but high-carbon configuration in a 125.xxxx designation. These discs work well and you can expect 10+ hard days out of them. They're easily found for $50 - $80 depending on the seller and time of year.

Fluid: Motul RBF 600 is a good cost-effective fluid for your typical 25-30 minute DE stint. Go with the Torque 700 if you think you need more heat capacity and don't mind the price; it's an excellent fluid. I use Motul in the BRZ for light track duty, and bleed before every event. Works just fine. I use the Torque in my race car.

Pads: I first used Winmax 4 pads. Good on the track; so-so on the street. Consistent and linear bite, modulates well, wears very fast. I'm now on Ferodo DS2500 pads. A bit better for my braking style on track than the Winmax 4, and better on the street. Also, they're less expensive. They consistently bite in a linear fashion whether braking early or late and I think they are an excellent drivers' school pad.

Brake lines are stock.

So, that's an intentional street/track setup for the occasional multi-day track event, with the expectation of more street driving than track driving. The braking is strong and consistent on tight, fast and relatively short tracks with closely spaced 125-70 mph and 110-80 and 110-55 braking zones, with a variety of other braking operations thrown in the mix. I do notice some degradation after 20 minutes in 110 F or higher on track temps, but after backing off slightly the system recovers well. I have yet to boil the Motul fluid, which I used to boil all the damn time in a Carrera.

As they say, YMMV.

Wouldnt using Torque and bleeding every other event in your street car already pay for itself?

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Well considering he canyons regularly with me... or is it me that canyons regularly with him?

Fair enough, but this platform is the only one I've read such problems with. Even 1.6 Miata brakes (when guys have swaps and much more power) don't seem to have these types of problems.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Fair enough, but this platform is the only one I've read such problems with. Even 1.6 Miata brakes (when guys have swaps and much more power) don't seem to have these types of problems.

Perhaps the drivers posting here are of higher caliber.

I have this issue with almost all production cars on track; at some point you overcome the brakes thermal capacity.

[OkieSnuffBox]

My last instructor:

http://www.imsa.com/drivers/kristin-treager

[sprintamx]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Wouldnt using Torque and bleeding every other event in your street car already pay for itself?

On the fun side of things, sure, what the heck. I like Torque a lot, and I have no argument for NOT using it. I've raced with it for a whole season this year in some pretty challenging temps and I don't think it's ever skipped a beat. I do not run a BBK, though I do have decent ducting. I will say that I am comfortable enough with the Torque to only bleed pre-event for air, rather than a whole bottle.

On the serious penny-pinching side--and I am NOT advocating to cut relatively small costs either in brake fluid or oil; that is not smart savings--my experience with DE events is that they often want a bleed before the event. Some may only want a bleed within a period of time, so it all depends on who you're running with.

Bottom line, Motul does not suck and is not substantially inferior to Torque at the typical DE level of things. And if ever asked for advice, I will still say that if you're just getting on track, use the Motul and a good pad. Then, when you're comfortable with what you're doing, and you're using tires with more grip (and therefore heat loading!) you may find that you "need" that magic elixir called "Torque"!

My last comment here is platform specific: I do believe that the engine/exhaust layout and tight underbody aero of the twins adds some heat loading that may not be apparent on other platforms. So, plan accordingly.