For stockish power Nitto NT01's R-Comps overkill?

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

After reading comments, currently the last several events have been done on MPSS which have a TW of 300. I would rather save these for the street. Would a decent 140-200 TW tire be an improvement but not going as far as an slick/R-Comp?

Going back to Mike's question earlier... do you want to be a faster driver, or just turn quicker laps immediately?

What's your experience level like (beyond "novice")? If you're still learning and feeling out the car, stay on a higher tw tire. If you're confident and consistent, then grab a good fast street tire. I don't know what qualifies for contingency in the 86Cup, but RS3's, ZII SS, AD08R's, etc are all good options.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

After reading comments, currently the last several events have been done on MPSS which have a TW of 300. I would rather save these for the street. Would a decent 140-200 TW tire be an improvement but not going as far as an slick/R-Comp?

very important details about the streetable track tires vs street tires argument many people tend to forget:

• streetable track tires are designed to be operated at higher temps just like the track pads unlike the street tires they don't become inconsistent after couple laps .. this might be something to consider if you don't want to spend $1000 and destroy them soon..
  
  FYI Nitto NT01s are one of the most affordable (if not the most ) streetable track tires you can get for our cars and will definitely outlast the street tires when used at the track, I was able to get about 12 track days with combined use.. that's 2 season for most folks

• Treadwear ratings are not regulated so each company determines their own treadwear ratings.. what does this tell us?
  
  Michelin's 180 TWR and Hankook's 180 TWR tires are two different things and cannot be used as a direct indicator as a performance figure..
  
  Go take a look at the below link and you'll notice the MPSC2s are now 180 TW rating (big improvement over the 1st gen MPSC that have 100 TW)..
  
  http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....ot+Sport+Cup+2
  
  There is a HUGE difference between Cup 2 Tires and RS3 (or equivalent street tires)

• Since you already have best all around sport tires (MPSS) that come with many high performance and heavy sports cars such as M series, Porsche, New GT350, Corvettes.. (list goes on) why make a parallel move?
  
  you can also fit 4 wheels and tires and change them at the track like many people do or you can drive with NT01s or RA1 s to the track since highway use don't put any HC on them since the compound is different than more aggresive R comp tires that listed in previous posts.. For the record, my friends and I have been using them as DD and to the track whole summer with no issues (isn't that awesome?)

• and lastly it sounds like you already did your research and started looking for NT01s as result, I'd say there is a good reason many people praise these tires so I think you can trust your judgment, you don't need a briefing
  

Originally Posted by wparsons

Going back to Mike's question earlier... do you want to be a faster driver, or just turn quicker laps immediately?

What's your experience level like (beyond "novice")? If you're still learning and feeling out the car, stay on a higher tw tire. If you're confident and consistent, then grab a good fast street tire. I don't know what qualifies for contingency in the 86Cup, but RS3's, ZII SS, AD08R's, etc are all good options.

this is not a fact just an opinion, we both agree on that right?..
Not sure who started this but there is no evidence supporting that lesser/shittier tires make you a faster driver at the end,.. especially when they start letting go after couple hot laps..and that includes all experience levels.. a friend with this Mustang GT hated his Performance summer tires at day one , he didn't have any track experience and now looking for a second wheel and tire set..

if we were to talk about the ultra aggressive R comps that bites you right after you pass the slope it would be true but NT01s, RA1s or similar tires in that category are very forgiving and persistence ..

I would also understand if someone had to deal with class rules where the better tires cost them certain points but this is not the case here, right?

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

RR's cycle pretty dramatically in my experience.

I buy mine heat cycled. That may be the key. You should give them another shot.

My experience with Hoosier R6's is that you can almost double their effective life by properly heat cycling them.. you know from 6 to 12.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by glamcem

this is not a fact just an opinion, we both agree on that right?..
Not sure who started this but there is no evidence supporting that lesser/shittier tires make you a faster driver at the end,.. especially when they start letting go after couple hot laps..and that includes all experience levels.. a friend with this Mustang GT hated his Performance summer tires at day one , he didn't have any track experience and now looking for a second wheel and tire set..

if we were to talk about the ultra aggressive R comps that bites you right after you pass the slope it would be true but NT01s, RA1s or similar tires in that category are very forgiving and persistence ..

I would also understand if someone had to deal with class rules where the better tires cost them certain points but this is not the case here, right?

It has nothing to do with the tires being forgiving at the limit or not...

Put a novice on really sticky tires and the extra grip masks a lot of driving mistakes that would be very obvious on less grippy tires. This is because they'll be driving below the limit of really sticky tires at first.

The issue then becomes when they approach the limit and make the same mistakes. They haven't learned how to correct them yet, and are now travelling at significantly higher speeds than they would have been in the same situation on less grippy tires.

The whole point is to make sure you're driving consistently and properly, and can correct mistakes, at lower speeds where the consequences aren't as big. Once you're competent with car control, then move to grippier tires.

I would also argue that novices should spend a fair amount of time on a skidpad/slalom learning car control before setting out on a track as well for the same reasons.

Biggest scare I've ever had on a track was in a students car that decided to not brake at all approaching a turn, then stomp on the brakes when he was almost at the apex (despite my protests). Thankfully he was on crappy tires and travelling at ~60% speeds, and learned his lesson without putting a wheel off. Had he been on really sticky tires it could've been WAY worse. There wouldn't have been runoff space at the higher speeds and it would've likely ended up in a wall.

If a novice is overheating a summer tire in a couple laps, they're either a prodigy or really over driving the tire with mistakes...

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I buy mine heat cycled. That may be the key. You should give them another shot.

My experience with Hoosier R6's is that you can almost double their effective life by properly heat cycling them.. you know from 6 to 12.

I also got my Z214s heat cycled btw

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by wparsons

It has nothing to do with the tires being forgiving at the limit or not...

Put a novice on really sticky tires and the extra grip masks a lot of driving mistakes that would be very obvious on less grippy tires. This is because they'll be driving below the limit of really sticky tires at first.

The issue then becomes when they approach the limit and make the same mistakes. They haven't learned how to correct them yet, and are now travelling at significantly higher speeds than they would have been in the same situation on less grippy tires.

The whole point is to make sure you're driving consistently and properly, and can correct mistakes, at lower speeds where the consequences aren't as big. Once you're competent with car control, then move to grippier tires.

I would also argue that novices should spend a fair amount of time on a skidpad/slalom learning car control before setting out on a track as well for the same reasons.

Biggest scare I've ever had on a track was in a students car that decided to not brake at all approaching a turn, then stomp on the brakes when he was almost at the apex (despite my protests). Thankfully he was on crappy tires and travelling at ~60% speeds, and learned his lesson without putting a wheel off. Had he been on really sticky tires it could've been WAY worse. There wouldn't have been runoff space at the higher speeds and it would've likely ended up in a wall.

If a novice is overheating a summer tire in a couple laps, they're either a prodigy or really over driving the tire with mistakes...

Two important things though:

NT01s are not significantly faster/stickier tires compared to RS3 or AD08R, don't let the Treadwear ratings fool you (MPSC2 is a good example IMO) ..people typically see a 1-1.5sec difference in a 2 min laps and this could be due to confidence level or consistency or it could be many other factors,..

especially if the test hasn't been completed by a hot shoe like Randy Pobst and/or controlled environment, it is hard to tell if it's the rubber/compound, or driver confidence or combination of both.. test should be robotic ..

people who buy NT01s generally buy them for their price, and their consistency not for their ultimate grips.. there are a lot better tires for that purpose...

and secondly, we are talking about a car with stock power levels, so the differences will be even smaller ..it's somewhat hard to agree/disaggree with if using the consistency overcomes to gains of using them as a crotch..
like I said, I had a friend with RS3 who hated them after couple laps and a beginner who already reached the limits of his tires at the same day.. this may not be an issue with a lighter car like our of course..


and Lastly, I agree with your skidpad/ slalom car control practice .. I thought most performance schools mandate such a training before running solo, no?

[glamcem]

to the OP (forgot to mention), NT01s are designed to be run at relatively more aggressive camber (after confirming with Nitto I can tell you that) anywhere between -2.5 and -5.0 is ideal, if you have stock suspension you might wanna reconsider that too

[Sleepless]

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

I am looking getting a dedicated set of track rims and looking at NT01's because I read they are great tires, less prone to heat cycling, and are semi cheap.(700$ shipped) I figure if I can get a full season out of them, (novice driver) then it would be worth it. Looking to use these with some Kosei 17x8 K4R which are almost as light as RPF1's but I can get them for about 550$ from a buddy.

I want to save my Rota's and MPSS's for daily driving.

The MPSS are IMO only OK for the track. They get pretty greasy if you run them hard and they start to chunk, so they are easy to ruin in just a few track days.

NT01s are an excellent choice for all the reasons you stated. You can probably stick with 215's to keep the weight down.

Also, most of the 200 TW summer tires are excellent choices for dedicated track tires on a stock powered 86. My favorite is the AD08, but I chose them mainly because I drive a long ways on them to tracks and they are reasonably quite on the freeway. There are cheaper choices that others have noted which are probably stickier on the track, but are pretty loud on the freeway. The ADO8 is also almost as sticky as the NT01s, as are some of the other TW 200 tires.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Sleepless

The MPSS are IMO only OK for the track. They get pretty greasy if you run them hard and they start to chunk, so they are easy to ruin in just a few track days.

NT01s are an excellent choice for all the reasons you stated. You can probably stick with 215's to keep the weight down.

Also, most of the 200 TW summer tires are excellent choices for dedicated track tires on a stock powered 86. My favorite is the AD08, but I chose them mainly because I drive a long ways on them to tracks and they are reasonably quite on the freeway. There are cheaper choices that others have noted which are probably stickier on the track, but are pretty loud on the freeway. The ADO8 is also almost as sticky as the NT01s, as are some of the other TW 200 tires.

I hear the new AD08Rs are even better than the old AD08 tires when it comes to heat management and also faster ..even the old AD08 tires were pretty good (close to RE11s)..

compared to NT01s they are more expensive though ($160 vs $215)..
AD08 tires also run wider than similar tires as far as I know, for those who think might be an advantage for certain rim sizes

[SeanRTR]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I buy mine heat cycled. That may be the key. You should give them another shot.

My experience with Hoosier R6's is that you can almost double their effective life by properly heat cycling them.. you know from 6 to 12.

Hoosier R6 is no longer made, and now replaced by the R7 (Or SM7 in 205/50/15), and has a much better competitive lifespan than the R6. FYI

[CSG David]

RC1 and NT01 are good R-comps. NT01 takes time to heat up but does hold up to some overdriving. RC1 works from cold and doesn't tolerate overdriving as much. Grip levels are pretty equal. RC1 is near silent on the street. NT01 is noisy. Both tires suck in rain.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by glamcem

this is not a fact just an opinion, we both agree on that right?..
Not sure who started this but there is no evidence supporting that lesser/shittier tires make you a faster driver at the end,.. especially when they start letting go after couple hot laps..and that includes all experience levels.. a friend with this Mustang GT hated his Performance summer tires at day one , he didn't have any track experience and now looking for a second wheel and tire set..

This is fact. It lower the cornering limits of the car, so that you can spend more time dancing around the limits of adhesion, so that you can hone your skill at dancing around that fine line.

Are you as comfortable in the wet as in the dry? I bet you aren't. There's a myriad of excuses, but if you are comfortable with dancing around that grip limit, then being in the wet doesn't affect your ability to continue that dance.

You'll notice that a very common statement is that wet days are spectacular for car control practice. Why? Because the limit of grip is dropped dramatically, allowing you practice car control at a lower, safer speed. Using less grippy tires accomplishes the same thing, in the dry.

Does your car handle like it's on rails? If it does, there's more grip available.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by glamcem

Two important things though:

NT01s are not significantly faster/stickier tires compared to RS3 or AD08R, don't let the Treadwear ratings fool you (MPSC2 is a good example IMO) ..people typically see a 1-1.5sec difference in a 2 min laps and this could be due to confidence level or consistency or it could be many other factors,..

That's a significant difference...

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

This is fact. It lower the cornering limits of the car, so that you can spend more time dancing around the limits of adhesion, so that you can hone your skill at dancing around that fine line.

Are you as comfortable in the wet as in the dry? I bet you aren't. There's a myriad of excuses, but if you are comfortable with dancing around that grip limit, then being in the wet doesn't affect your ability to continue that dance.

You'll notice that a very common statement is that wet days are spectacular for car control practice. Why? Because the limit of grip is dropped dramatically, allowing you practice car control at a lower, safer speed. Using less grippy tires accomplishes the same thing, in the dry.

Does your car handle like it's on rails? If it does, there's more grip available.

R888s + 50° temps + nice wet track = exciting track day.


Nearly impossible to get them to heat up until it dried out in the afternoon. Was a cool experience to go from wet to intermediate to dry in one day.