Suberman's guide on how to make the car fix his inability to drive correctly.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Ubersuber

You will note that Subaru/Toyota are moving the roll stiffness bias of the FRS towards the front axle for 2015. It has been suggested that they employ talented engineers. I'm pretty sure the TRD spring and roll bar kits will both move the roll stiffness bias forwards also.

Because too many people can't drive and have spun them into solid objects. This isn't rocket science from a PR perspective. Toyota did the same thing when they dumbed down the MR2 to protect the stupid from themselves, and Honda did it somewhat with the S2000 also.

[Ubersuber]

I'm pretty sure that isn't it. There is no suggestion that the BRZ spring rates will be changed though I expect the improved dampers will be added to the BRZ also.

The legal liability issues are adequately covered by the electronic stability aids that cannot be switched off fully (at least not officially) and will reactivate should a driver overstep certain parameters. Also, the electronic stability aids must be consciously and deliberately switched off (5 seconds for the BRZ and longer for some other cars) and this must be repeated every time you restart the car. Nope they got the liability angle covered.

Also, the electronic aids are very capable and should protect most drivers who are not taking these cars to extremes of tire grip, no systems can defeat the determined efforts of a sufficiently incompetent driver.

Subaru/Toyota both claim the changes they are making are to improve the handling of these cars and they hired a racing driver to help them prove it, apparently.

Who are we to speculate that they are doing this wrong?

Granted each to his own driving style, but ALL current F1 cars are driven without any oversteer whenever possible. Anytime an F1 car goes even a tiny bit sideways it is slower. That's worth considering by anyone seeking lower lap times from any car.

[Dipstik-sportech]

Can someone please ban this obvious troll please. Thanks.

[Calum]

Calum's guide on how to make the car fix Suberman's inability to drive correctly.

Attend a few HPDE classes.

The only time I've had the back end step out on me is when I get REALLY ham fisted with it. My last project car needed that to get it to rotate, so I was pretty surprised the first time it happened in the FRS. But after I learned to drive it more smoothly I found that oversteer and understeer are available upon request, as long as I choose my corner line and braking point ahead of time.

That's not to say I haven't found ways of improving my ability to drive this car quicker by modifying the suspension. But the mods I've made haven't been for improved grip, but improved driver confidence.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Ubersuber

Well, that may be why you are fitting clutch type LSD...

If you aren't adding any power you might not notice that you could be quicker if you did the opposite.

Did you miss the part of the thread about clutch LSD's where CSG said they did the testing with stock suspension and power?

Also, are you seriously suggesting that your theory offers more value on suspension tuning than the vast amount of testing CSG, RCE, etc have done. They don't just try one thing and claim it as gospel, they try MANY setups with data logging to back up their claims on what works and what doesn't.

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Setup depends greatly on driver style and preferences. The car you like (based on this thread) is a car I'd HATE to drive. You'd hate any of my cars on the track too.


On the street, it's whatever. I drive like a responsible person on the street normally so oversteer has never been a concern of mine. Your threads remind me of all the S2K idiots who spun cars in intersections because they can't control the throttle. That's another car I made more loose on purpose. :shrug:

He'll never get it. Even on stock tires I never once had mine step out of line unexpectedly.

Understeering cars feel safer at the limit to inexperienced drivers, but are ultimately slower. Neutral biased towards looser is faster, as long as the driver is comfortable behind the wheel.

[stugray]

Originally Posted by Calum

The only time I've had the back end step out on me is when I get REALLY ham fisted with it. My last project car needed that to get it to rotate, so I was pretty surprised the first time it happened in the FRS. But after I learned to drive it more smoothly I found that oversteer and understeer are available upon request, as long as I choose my corner line and braking point ahead of time. .

I have found my BRZ on stock tires is quite tail happy and I dont have to be "Ham-fisted"with it, just "sporting".

Most people would not even notice the frequent "excursions outside the traction circle" in these cars because the TCS masks it so well.

I have never learned how to recover the BRZ from an oversteer event (intentional or otherwise) as I have in all my other RWD cars because this car wont let it get out with the nannies engaged.

So MOST BRZ/FRS drivers dont KNOW how tail happy these cars really are.
I will honestly state that as a fact.

[Model Citizen]

Whoever changed the title deserves sainthood.

[CoupedUpSubie]

BRZ on stock tires with TCS off will result in the car going extremely tail happy only if one is taking off quick and cranking the wheel or the tires are overheated resulting in highly reduced traction.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by stugray

I have found my BRZ on stock tires is quite tail happy and I dont have to be "Ham-fisted"with it, just "sporting".

Most people would not even notice the frequent "excursions outside the traction circle" in these cars because the TCS masks it so well.

I have never learned how to recover the BRZ from an oversteer event (intentional or otherwise) as I have in all my other RWD cars because this car wont let it get out with the nannies engaged.

So MOST BRZ/FRS drivers dont KNOW how tail happy these cars really are.
I will honestly state that as a fact.

I've found the TCS/VSC to be overly sensitive. My first track outing I left it in sport mode and it came on so often I was actually concerned. I then drove it with everything off and determined the car was too pushy and needed to be looser. :shrug:


And I know how tail happy they are: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m_Iy6gTPVg"]Oops in turn 1 at Sebring. Subaru BRZ / Chin Motorsports 4-13-13 - YouTube[/ame]

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by stugray

I have found my BRZ on stock tires is quite tail happy and I dont have to be "Ham-fisted"with it, just "sporting".

Most people would not even notice the frequent "excursions outside the traction circle" in these cars because the TCS masks it so well.

I have never learned how to recover the BRZ from an oversteer event (intentional or otherwise) as I have in all my other RWD cars because this car wont let it get out with the nannies engaged.

So MOST BRZ/FRS drivers dont KNOW how tail happy these cars really are.
I will honestly state that as a fact.

Slowly approaching the edge of the traction control always results in understeer with the car... if you get the tail out with a stock car, you're using large weight transfers, whether you're aware of it or not.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Model Citizen

Whoever changed the title deserves sainthood.

It was probably some piece of shit vendor protecting moderator. Those guys are ****heads.

[CoupedUpSubie]

As for the whole a bump stop is not a spring, that is incorrect.

A spring:

a resilient device, typically a helical metal coil, that can be pressed or pulled but returns to its former shape when released, used chiefly to exert constant tension or absorb movement

It is typically a helical metal coil, but does not have to be. Anything which has a spring constant is classified as a spring.

I say this with actual knowledge and the education to support this stance.
@Ubersuber we would love to know where you extensive knowledge comes from.

[litemup]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Slowly approaching the edge of the traction control always results in understeer with the car... if you get the tail out with a stock car, you're using large weight transfers, whether you're aware of it or not.

Mike, a question from the noob section: I've noticed this as well but was quickly trounced in another thread for expressing appreciation of the FRS' "neutrality." (frs vs brz blah blah...)

On long sweepers where I would like to add a little throttle, I can't because it just exacerbates the condition.

Taking the most incremental approach, would it be worth the effort trying to manage this by tweaking tire pressure? I feel a skid-pad session coming this weekend.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

It was probably some piece of shit vendor protecting moderator. Those guys are ****heads.

Hahah, the irony.

Although I still don't agree with you that people doing favours for a 6 pack or free dinner needs to pay for vendor fees or vendors lying about designing their turbo kits when it's a knockoff should be immune from people not happy with such business ethics.

However, let's agree to disagree on that front.