Autocar: BRZ vs. MX-5 vs. 370Z

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by NESW20

what's wrong with downshifting?

Come to socal and spend three hours on the 91 everyday and you'll figure it out real quick

[armythug]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Like how much? 250? 280? 300? 350?

It all depends on the car and what I wanted out of it.


off subject but I wonder if the people that post here also realize that enthusiasts have modified the original 86 for more power as well. It's not like everyone that owned an original 86 has left it bone stock. But some people in this forum act like its blasphemy when others desire more power out of this new 86.

[NESW20]

Originally Posted by fatoni

Come to socal and spend three hours on the 91 everyday and you'll figure it out real quick

been there, done that. i lived off the 91/57 for 20 years. believe me, i've had a very sore clutch knee after clutching in and out constantly for 2.5-3 hours when driving out to the norco/riverside area at about 4pm.

however, the situation you described has little to do with needing to downshift. that has to do with driving a manual transmission through stop and go traffic in general. would i enjoy it? absolutely not. no one in their right mind would. would it prevent me from purchasing a manual FRS/BRZ? no way.

for what it's worth, i occasionally drive a 1993 Corolla DX as a fuel saver/commuter. 115hp & 5 speed. i never have any trouble keeping up with or moving away from traffic in this area.

visual aid:

[Lighting Red]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

Interesting. I think I heard Toyota/Subaru may actually add a supercharger to the FA20? Do you think that would be a good idea?

Supercharging is more than likely not a good idea unless they drop the compression ratio down from 12.5:1. Then again, maybe that car has an over built top end, bottom end, internals, and an over-speced. fuel pump with plenty of over-head to handle the greater fuel requirements. Then again, again.... that all sounds like the recipe for a heavy car, an expensive car, or a heavy and expensive car... neither of which define the BRZ. Besides, Subaru already makes plenty of forced induction cars.

The goal of the BRZ is to be as organic as possible in terms of driver feel. For that, one would need a lightweight chassis and power-train, which provides linear and accessible power delivery. All requirements considered (cost, performance, manufacturability, serviceability, efficiency, packaging, weight, etc), that pretty much leaves you with a high revving naturally aspirated engine motivating a fairly light chassis riding on a good to fantastic suspension... cost dependent, of course. Without easing up on one of the above constraints (again unless it's cost), it is tough to beat the basic formula that the BRZ is built on. Case in point; though they seem different, the Porsche GT3, Ford BOSS 302, Mazda Miata, even the Integra Type R, and our very own BRZ really are fruit off the same tree.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by NESW20

been there, done that. i lived off the 91/57 for 20 years. believe me, i've had a very sore clutch knee after clutching in and out constantly for 2.5-3 hours when driving out to the norco/riverside area at about 4pm.

however, the situation you described has little to do with needing to downshift. that has to do with driving a manual transmission through stop and go traffic in general. would i enjoy it? absolutely not. no one in their right mind would. would it prevent me from purchasing a manual FRS/BRZ? no way.

for what it's worth, i occasionally drive a 1993 Corolla DX as a fuel saver/commuter. 115hp & 5 speed. i never have any trouble keeping up with or moving away from traffic in this area.

visual aid:

it has a lot to do with downshifting. im not saying this car must have more power, im just saying that more power is helpful for a variety of every day tasks. for what its worth automatics downshift too.

on a side note, err, rather the original topic that has been buried in the typical ftclub tangents: does this review say that the frs is lighter than the miata? seems legit

[NESW20]

Originally Posted by fatoni

it has a lot to do with downshifting. im not saying this car must have more power, im just saying that more power is helpful for a variety of every day tasks. for what its worth automatics downshift too.

on a side note, err, rather the original topic that has been buried in the typical ftclub tangents: does this review say that the frs is lighter than the miata? seems legit

i guess i just don't mind downshifting as much as others. :happy0180:

the review does say that. and with some minor weight reduction...

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Lighting Red

Supercharging is more than likely not a good idea unless they drop the compression ratio down from 12.5:1. Then again, maybe that car has an over built top end, bottom end, internals, and an over-speced. fuel pump with plenty of over-head to handle the greater fuel requirements. Then again, again.... that all sounds like the recipe for a heavy car, an expensive car, or a heavy and expensive car... neither of which define the BRZ. Besides, Subaru already makes plenty of forced induction cars.

The goal of the BRZ is to be as organic as possible in terms of driver feel. For that, one would need a lightweight chassis and power-train, which provides linear and accessible power delivery. All requirements considered (cost, performance, manufacturability, serviceability, efficiency, packaging, weight, etc), that pretty much leaves you with a high revving naturally aspirated engine motivating a fairly light chassis riding on a good to fantastic suspension... cost dependent, of course. Without easing up on one of the above constraints (again unless it's cost), it is tough to beat the basic formula that the BRZ is built on. Case in point; though they seem different, the Porsche GT3, Ford BOSS 302, Mazda Miata, even the Integra Type R, and our very own BRZ really are fruit off the same tree.

Yeah, I agree with that. So what do you all think about my proposal for a 2.5L Boxer 4? Generally I don't like Inline 4's to be over 2.0L because that means a balance shaft is required. However, Boxer engines have an advantage in that it does not need a balance shaft over 2.0L. So that kind of makes up for the fact that it needs two timing chains IMO.

A 2.5L boxer (with the same configuration as the FA20, ie. D4S) would only add a little weight, a little less fuel economy, and would not add anymore complexity. But the power gains would be big enough to give it the edge over any other NA 4 cylinder and the RX-8. Plus, it would have a more useable power range. So we're looking at about 250hp and 190 lb ft of torque.

BTW, this is probably going way off topic of this thread. :P

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by NESW20

i guess i just don't mind downshifting as much as others. :happy0180:

the review does say that. and with some minor weight reduction...

It does say that. Both in the article and later in the spec comparison box at the end. I don't know why all these articles keep using the prht miata either. while you can probably pull more from the frs, the miata is going to be lighter mod for mod

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

A 2.5L boxer (with the same configuration as the FA20, ie. D4S) would only add a little weight, a little less fuel economy, and would not add anymore complexity. But the power gains would be big enough to give it the edge over any other NA 4 cylinder and the RX-8. Plus, it would have a more useable power range. So we're looking at about 250hp and 190 lb ft of torque.

BTW, this is probably going way off topic of this thread. :P

Depends on now FA25 is made. FA20 been bored .5 or FA20 using same block as FA25. Those 2 makes a big difference in weights, hp/tq & fuel eco

[Spaceywilly]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

Im curious as to what people who are considering the BRZ/FRS actually drive now.

If power is a major consideration it would put into perspective what they are coming from, whether its a 100hp slowass econobox tin can, a 300hp family car that has no semblance of driving feel whatsoever, a 300hp SUV that feels like its gonna tip over at a 1 degree turn, or a 600hp beastmode supercar that costs an arm, a leg, your first born, and your house.

I drive a 2002 WRX. Stock it dynos with the exact same numbers Cobb got when they dyno'd the BRZ, and it has 400lbs and 2 more wheels to drive. I have never felt like it was underpowered so I don't think I'll feel like the BRZ is underpowered.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Depends on now FA25 is made. FA20 been bored .5 or FA20 using same block as FA25. Those 2 makes a big difference in weights, hp/tq & fuel eco

Hey! You have a 2.5L NA Boxer 4. Tell us what you think? Nuff power? :P

How much does your car weigh? Around 2800 lb?

[Jimbo]

As an owner of a NSX - I particularly took note of the "Verdict". I think this is going to be the perfect car for my Daily Driver!!!

-Jim

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

As an owner of a NSX - I particularly took note of the "Verdict". I think this is going to be the perfect car for my Daily Driver!!!

-Jim

What was more fun - the NSX or Elise?

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

Hey! You have a 2.5L NA Boxer 4. Tell us what you think? Nuff power? :P

How much does your car weigh? Around 2800 lb?

Stock or modded?

I'll give you both of em for ya

Stock EJ251
Low end got a ton of tq, so don't need to downshift at all
BUT top end don't got anything
Mid rpm got lil bump

Modded EJ251 (cams, valves, ported w remapped ECU, & usual bolt on mods)
Smoothed the bump in the mid
bumped extra 500rpm (but kinda pointless)
Top end gets better feel... but not great as S2k

STock EJ253
Don't have a ton tq feeling as EJ251 (due to chassis)
Top ends don't feel weak as EJ251, but 250rpm~400rpm to the redline still feel lacking
bump in the mid smoothed out, but still can feel it

Modded EJ253 (reflash ECU, usual bolt on mods)
Has better tq feel in mid high rpm than stock.
Top end lackness drop to only last +-200rpm
Wish for lil more tq line

My Impreza (GM6) weight 2718 lbs (track modded) to 2870 (stock). Prob current weight is 2750~2765 lbs-ish

My friend's Impreza ('07) weight currently 2950 lbs-ish

Overall my GM6 get's going enough for sure.