Track suspension advice

[SirBrass]

Originally Posted by CSG David

You have grip where some coilover setups don't have it. What's the point of suspension if you can't even lay down the tire in the right place?

Well of course one wants to maximize the suspension's ability to keep the contact patch on the ground. I just didn't know if the 14 being more compliant than the 13 was a good thing or whether it was too compliant.

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by CSG David

You have grip where some coilover setups don't have it. What's the point of suspension if you can't even lay down the tire in the right place?

So why do people go for coilovers with rock hard spring rates? It's almost turned into a "bigger numbers are better" competition.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by ayau

Will RCE sell revalved B6 with lowering springs?

We're trying to think of a solution.

- Andy

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

We're trying to think of a solution.

- Andy

Well, if you need someone to beta test your ideas...

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

So why do people go for coilovers with rock hard spring rates? It's almost turned into a "bigger numbers are better" competition.

Faster transitions due to smaller motions. It speeds up the weight transfers.

No suspension is fastest... if you have a perfect surface.

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Faster transitions due to smaller motions. It speeds up the weight transfers.

No suspension is fastest... if you have a perfect surface.

Logically to me, it seems like putting stiffer springs on a car and getting that property of faster weight transfer should also make the car more twitchy and therefore require more advanced skills to handle it in an emergency situation, right?

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Faster transitions due to smaller motions. It speeds up the weight transfers.

No suspension is fastest... if you have a perfect surface.

It's just curious to see something like Ohlins R/T or RCE Tarmac 2 Clubsport at 6 or 7 kg/mm, compared to Cusco Zero-3x at 16kg/mm or Tein SRC at 12kg/mm. I have to wonder if some companies know something that the others don't. Granted, they're probably for different purposes.

[SirBrass]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Faster transitions due to smaller motions. It speeds up the weight transfers.

No suspension is fastest... if you have a perfect surface.

But if the suspension can't move very far b/c the spring rates are too stiff, then you can't make use of this car's advantages, from what I understand (that is, this car needs plenty of suspension travel in order to work well). Right?

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by SirBrass

Well of course one wants to maximize the suspension's ability to keep the contact patch on the ground. I just didn't know if the 14 being more compliant than the 13 was a good thing or whether it was too compliant.

All I have to say is it's different. With proper camber setup, you really just focus on driving rather than spending time figuring out what's a good spec. Subaru/Toyota already did the homework for you in that sense. Obviously, if you're looking to be way more competitive, we've already did all the testing for you...hear that money flying out the window? LOL

[Deep Six]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

^Again mostly untrue. The benefit of most high-end dampers (Penske, Sachs, MCS, Ohlins, JRZ, custom Bilsteins, Koni race) is the compliance and grip they provide over rough patches (how many smooth tracks do you know? this is not Japan!!), while maintaining tire contact and grip = this is what you are paying $$$ for and the very characteristic is what makes them very comfortable on the street. As long as the valving is properly matched for the car and the spring, the shock should be able to be adjusted for the street.

Again, this is the motorsports section....the brands I mentioned are what I consider "high-end". You're experience and opinion obviously is very different. I expect that you do not have any first hand knowledge on custom tuned applications from any of the brands I mentioned.

Regardless of purchase price, I don't consider BuddyClub, Stance, BC, etc...to be "high-end". I assume that most people who frequent this section of the forum think similarly.

You often put FA in the same sentence as Ohlins, Penske, JRZ, Moton and imply that FA's top end product is one the same level, yet "better" for the street. I don't really understand your logic.

Personally, I think FA is in the same level as Stance, BC, etc...Those brands are all similar featuring all the catch phrase bells and whistles (monotube, adjustable, Xmm size piston, X # of clicks, X type of coating, X type bearings), yet when it comes to any real competition where performance can be measured I fail to see their name anywhere.

If FA has the performance and we just don't know about it, SHOW US!!

You might want to check the TTD track records for Sebring and Roebling before making a blanket statement like that. And if Sebring isn't considered bumpy then all tracks are smooth as glass. The real value in the high end products is in the durability and multi tasking capability moreso than their ability to reduce lap times.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

So why do people go for coilovers with rock hard spring rates? It's almost turned into a "bigger numbers are better" competition.

People who know what they're doing go with them because they work (for them and for what they're trying to achieve). Another person/team in the same circumstance might choose rates that are significantly softer. Whatever is chosen, some may be aiming to get the car to work for a driver with idiosyncratic needs, some may have worked really hard to find out what works best for them, and some may be copying a known-to-work setup like those suggested by vendors here.

I own an E36 M3 race car. Its rates are 28.6k/6.1k, and the typical club racer rates are more like 9k/11k and 14k/16k. Those cars are a lot easier to drive than mine is, and in the rain they're even easier to drive. On any but the very bumpiest of tracks, however, I'll take my setup any day of the week. There are always going to be trade-offs to manage and live with, whether you're running a DD, a track car, or a race car.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

Logically to me, it seems like putting stiffer springs on a car and getting that property of faster weight transfer should also make the car more twitchy and therefore require more advanced skills to handle it in an emergency situation, right?

It's only twitchy if your improperly damped. Otherwise, the front weight transfer happens first, and rough/harsh inputs will just result in understeer. Steering happens at the front, not rear.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by SirBrass

But if the suspension can't move very far b/c the spring rates are too stiff, then you can't make use of this car's advantages, from what I understand (that is, this car needs plenty of suspension travel in order to work well). Right?

The car's biggest advantage is its stability at 80+, IMO.

High spring rates =/= upset chassis. The suspension's job is to absorb the road and maximize contact, not make the chassis move in accordance to every flaw on the driving surface. It all comes down to the damper.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Deep Six

You might want to check the TTD track records for Sebring and Roebling before making a blanket statement like that. And if Sebring isn't considered bumpy then all tracks are smooth as glass. The real value in the high end products is in the durability and multi tasking capability moreso than their ability to reduce lap times.

I'm not inclined to use NASA TT records as a benchmark. I know a LOT of drivers who can break the TT record of the class they fall into, but choose not to because they have zero desire to go do it.

Here's an example; compare this to our WSIR video (car falls into TTC, with a HUGE margin):

Willow Springs International Raceway Class No. Name Vehicle Time Date TTU 4 Bart Carter 05 Radical SR8 1:20.27 5/25/08 TT1 548 Terry Free 07 Corvette Z06 1:25.83 2/7/10 TT2 32 Team Cashin In 01 Corvette Z06 1:27.71 5/22/10 TT3 212 Patrick Lindsey 01 Audi S4 1:29.48 2/11/06 TTB 717 David Jodoin 99 BMW M3 1:32.77 5/23/10 TTC 49 Emilio Cervantes 04 Mazda Miata 1:32.72 5/26/12 TTD 777 Shawn Dolan 01 Pontiac Firebird 1:35.20 7/12/08 TTE 93 Emilio Cervantes 01 Mazda Miata 1:35.45 5/5/13 TTF 321 Dan Gardner 91 Nissan NX2000 1:41.21 5/7/06