Full throttle Electric Supercharger Build Thread

[Sojhinn]

Originally Posted by fenton

Looking forward to the results. I think 15 to 20 may not be out of the question though with the proper aggressive tune.

Are you tuning on dynojet or something else?

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We are going to hit up a dyno jet that way we get more consistent results with what you guys have.

[Fast_Freddy]

Originally Posted by Gary in NJ

If an alternator is turning (and the field is present) its making power, all of the time. It's the regulator (in our car the ECU) that controls the flow of power through a variable field. The field is almost never open. You will not wear out an alternator any faster whether the charging *system* is outputting 25% of the time or 70% of the time.

It's a use it or loose it system. In that regard it's free.

Also keep in mind that the 24V system for the ESC only receives a nominal trickle charge when idle. It only receives a full charge for a few seconds following engagement. As a result, the system is less taxing on the alternator then a rear window defogger which pulls current for 15 minutes.

I disagree. Our charging system is not a "use it or loose it" system and the energy needed to recharge the ESC batteries is not free. As I said before, cheap but not free. However little, the engine still sees increased load from the alternator due to the necessity of recharging the ESC batteries.

Originally Posted by fenton

@Fast_Freddy

Its certainly not free but it is pretty close. The charge drawn from the alternator is 25a for single recharge or 50a for the double recharge. Underload this does not change as the dump batteries are isolated from the starter battery via the controller.

I believe I am essential running a tractor battery right now. The CCA is just a little lower than the stock battery.

We are going to try the blow through MAF today

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Thank you. Cheap but not free. Nothing is free in this world.

Do you know what group size battery you're running? If I did want to buy a Phantom ESC I'd rather not have to source my own battery tray, hold down hardware and figure out what size starting battery will fit.

Good luck with the blow-thru MAF.

[Gary in NJ]

Originally Posted by Fast_Freddy

I disagree. Our charging system is not a "use it or loose it" system and the energy needed to recharge the ESC batteries is not free. As I said before, cheap but not free. However little, the engine still sees increased load from the alternator due to the necessity of recharging the ESC batteries.



Thank you. Cheap but not free. Nothing is free in this world.

Do you know what group size battery you're running? If I did want to buy a Phantom ESC I'd rather not have to source my own battery tray, hold down hardware and figure out what size starting battery will fit.

Good luck with the blow-thru MAF.

Obviously you did not read my post in #2499 above:

I don't like my answer in post #2492. Yes, during the vast majority of time the ESC batteries receive a trickle charge from the alternator with an insignificant load, but during the 5 to 10 second recharge period following engagement the alternator is putting our significant current.

Rob has battery trays or can recommend alternative trays if you choose to use a larger battery.

[Robftss]

Originally Posted by Fast_Freddy

Whatever the parasitic losses associated with this ESC, I doubt that they are much more than that of a small turbocharger.

It is the overall energy that is relevant.

The conversion from alt-charger-dump battery-controller-motor is less efficient than a turbine/backpressure or belt-gearbox/drive losses. However, for the same wheel output boost/flow required is ~ 1/2, therefore 1/2 the energy, than that of conventional FI due to minimal parasitic losses. It is when the parasitic energy is extracted that determines the difference in efficiency in a DD application.
Conventional FI...@ 11-12 AFR. Phantom ESC... @ 14.7 AFR

Rob.

[CajunFRS]

Originally Posted by Robftss

It is the overall energy that is relevant.

The conversion from alt-charger-dump battery-controller-motor is less efficient than a turbine/backpressure or belt-gearbox/drive losses. However, for the same wheel output boost/flow required is ~ 1/2, therefore 1/2 the energy, than that of conventional FI due to minimal parasitic losses. It is when the parasitic energy is extracted that determines the difference in efficiency in a DD application.
Conventional FI...@ 11-12 AFR. Phantom ESC... @ 14.7 AFR

Rob.

Is 14.7 a little high? (Bad)

[Robftss]

Originally Posted by CajunFRS

Is 14.7 a little high? (Bad)

Bulk charge, aka parasitic, occurs during stoichiometric combustion.

[fenton]

Update:
Blow through MAF abandoned for now. We did get it working but without a tuner to rescale the MAF we were not confident in continued testing.

Lots of good information coming in from the testers. Rob is very happy with how the kits have been preforming and how little problems there has been across the 8 individuals running the kit.

Its getting pretty nippy outside in the mornings and im happy to report that cold weather performance seems VERY good.

Car has started no problem in below freezing weather, starting sounds just as you would expect it stock.

Now the performance in below freezing..... its damn nice stuffing below freezing air into the engine. Top end is very noticeably increased and i dont notice any drop off in boost even after 30 minutes of highway driving in -10C.

All i can say is my winter tires are BEGGING for mercy, the torque in even third is enough for them to start clawing at the pavement and fight for traction.

[SloS14]

We need videos of freezing temp hoonage.

[fenton]

Originally Posted by SloS14

We need videos of freezing temp hoonage.

Roger! I'll work on something good

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[Sojhinn]

Originally Posted by fenton

Update:
Blow through MAF abandoned for now. We did get it working but without a tuner to rescale the MAF we were not confident in continued testing.

Lots of good information coming in from the testers. Rob is very happy with how the kits have been preforming and how little problems there has been across the 8 individuals running the kit.

Its getting pretty nippy outside in the mornings and im happy to report that cold weather performance seems VERY good.

Car has started no problem in below freezing weather, starting sounds just as you would expect it stock.

Now the performance in below freezing..... its damn nice stuffing below freezing air into the engine. Top end is very noticeably increased and i dont notice any drop off in boost even after 30 minutes of highway driving in -10C.

All i can say is my winter tires are BEGGING for mercy, the torque in even third is enough for them to start clawing at the pavement and fight for traction.

Sorry I haven't been talking much. Been keeping it low key since I don't have the tune. But it looks like I'm on for the 25th for the tune for both e85 and 91 octane. I will also be doing a long distance run that same day. So I'm interested in seeing how things perform then. Still waiting on parts for our schools dyno.

[silent runner]

Originally Posted by Robftss

It is the overall energy that is relevant.

The conversion from alt-charger-dump battery-controller-motor is less efficient than a turbine/backpressure or belt-gearbox/drive losses. However, for the same wheel output boost/flow required is ~ 1/2, therefore 1/2 the energy, than that of conventional FI due to minimal parasitic losses. It is when the parasitic energy is extracted that determines the difference in efficiency in a DD application.
Conventional FI...@ 11-12 AFR. Phantom ESC... @ 14.7 AFR

Rob.

I understand this. While the alternate battery system takes the big hit for power draw, the cars alternater only is loaded a little more. After a run, and maybe even while decelerating, the car can continue to supply re-charge, with little or no paracitic loss. Besides, how much power could the FRS's alternater actually draw back? I'll bet its not more than 100amp system. That means, the most is can be asked to supply is about: P=VI, or about 12v*100amps= 1200W, or 1200*1/746w/hp= 1.61hp! However, it won't even do this, because it runs off of an isolated battery system, while in operation.

Under re-charge conditions, it not likely that the supplimentary battery system will actually tag the atlternater for its full 100 amp capability, all the way through a cycle, but there you have it. The draw of the exta battery system will never really take more than 1.5 hp out of your ride.

Now I'm coming off of a 4cyl Mazda 626 Turbo, that I had boosted at 16psi. This system had to run, all the time to make the intake system operate properly. It had to draw energy to spin-up the compressor, (all the time) and push the intake air through a long tortuous route, from intake, through a bunch of pipes, to an intercooler, then finally to the engine. I never measured it, but I bet it made 6 changes of 180 degrees along the way and had to be pushed through at least 6ft of pipes and the intercooler in the process. When you called on this little monster to make power, it did it in style, but it had many paracitic losses in regular operation. It loved the cold air as well. At -20 celcius, it felt honestly, like it might actually rip it's front wheels off.

[rusty959]

Originally Posted by silent runner

I understand this. While the alternate battery system takes the big hit for power draw, the cars alternater only is loaded a little more. After a run, and maybe even while decelerating, the car can continue to supply re-charge, with little or no paracitic loss. Besides, how much power could the FRS's alternater actually draw back? I'll bet its not more than 100amp system. That means, the most is can be asked to supply is about: P=VI, or about 12v*100amps= 1200W, or 1200*1/746w/hp= 1.61hp! However, it won't even do this, because it runs off of an isolated battery system, while in operation.

Under re-charge conditions, it not likely that the supplimentary battery system will actually tag the atlternater for its full 100 amp capability, all the way through a cycle, but there you have it. The draw of the exta battery system will never really take more than 1.5 hp out of your ride.

Now I'm coming off of a 4cyl Mazda 626 Turbo, that I had boosted at 16psi. This system had to run, all the time to make the intake system operate properly. It had to draw energy to spin-up the compressor, (all the time) and push the intake air through a long tortuous route, from intake, through a bunch of pipes, to an intercooler, then finally to the engine. I never measured it, but I bet it made 6 changes of 180 degrees along the way and had to be pushed through at least 6ft of pipes and the intercooler in the process. When you called on this little monster to make power, it did it in style, but it had many paracitic losses in regular operation. It loved the cold air as well. At -20 celcius, it felt honestly, like it might actually rip it's front wheels off.

Its a 130 amp alt. And if you are really drawing from it the most you will notice is decreased gas mileage. I notice a couple mpg drop when I'm running my stereo hard on the highway.

So what you said is reasonably correct, but the alt also puts out about 13.8v not 12v.

[CajunFRS]

Originally Posted by rusty959

Its a 130 amp alt. And if you are really drawing from it the most you will notice is decreased gas mileage. I notice a couple mpg drop when I'm running my stereo hard on the highway.

So what you said is reasonably correct, but the alt also puts out about 13.8v not 12v.

Stero decreased your gas mileage?

[rusty959]

Originally Posted by CajunFRS

Stero decreased your gas mileage?

Ever had a stereo that when the bass hit in neutral your rpm drops due to the extra load on the alt? Mine drops a few hundred rpm.

If you haven't experienced that, you haven't experienced my fabled mpg drop.