Full throttle Electric Supercharger Build Thread

[Fast_Freddy]

Originally Posted by Robftss

I agree, placement and transitions are less than ideal....it is a long shot...but easy to try since the sensor can be easily moved. At least we will know for sure, similar changes to MAF ID and placement to the VW allowed for manipulation of AFR's in open loop.

Sunday night will be -12C (10F) overnight, Fenton/Bu-Tang park outside

Rob

Well I suppose it's worth a shot although Subaru's in general seem to be unusually sensitive to MAS placement for some reason. My previous Toyota was much more forgiving in this regard. I really should remove and examine my 86 MAS to see why, if by luck it's that obvious. Good luck with it. FWIW, I had great success with a slightly larger ID MAF tube on my turbo Toyota. I only went from 70mm to 72mm but it made a huge difference. Tuning the ESC via a new MAS tube would be a lot more economical than a $500+ tune.

Which starting battery is Bu-Tang using? Last I read Fenton was using one "essentially the same size as the OEM battery". Whatever that means... I replaced a group 35 with a 24R on my last car when I added the turbo. That worked flawlessly but I have my doubts about using a small SLA designed for scooters, UPSs and exit signs.

Originally Posted by jpit

I have attached a photo of my battery set-up. I chose the Odyssey PC925, a battery equal to or probably better than the OEM Panasonic battery. Needed to get a longer battery tray ($8.00 on ebay) and Rob made some adjustments for the wiring to fit. Taped and zip tied the batteries together and the fitment is perfect. I mounted the arming switch on top of the trunk opening button. The green led display is somewhat bright and distracting and I wanted the steering wheel to hide it. With the switch now being controlled by the ignition there isn't a real need to view it all the time.

Gary, I am seeing a maximum of a 4.1 psi boost at 3000 but usually sits at 3.8. I'm using the Torque App. and I assume it is reading correctly.

Thank you. Making my own solution is always an option but I do believe that for the average ESC buyer it would be best for Phantom to offer a tray and hold-down hardware for a specific battery combination capable of year round use. I would trust Odyssey but not a little UPS SLA battery that doesn't even carry a CCA rating.

BTW, Torque via Bluetooth is very slooooooooooow. Often as slow as only 15-20 PID reads per second. Chances are you're only seeing boost psi once per second so it's pretty crude. A USB cable connection is about 10x faster but still very slow for accurate data logging.

Originally Posted by Gary in NJ

The HTT is an exhaust turbine that spins a generator. The power developed is stored in a battery or capacitor. When demanded, the stored energy can run a motor/compressor to develop boost. So in this system waste gas is used to create stored energy.

The ESC uses waste/unused current from the alternator and stores that energy in batteries. When commanded (~70% throttle travel) the stored energy is used to run a motor/compressor to develop boost. The ESC is a simpler design. I would think lighter too as there isn't a turbine/turbo in the exhaust.

I'm sure that Rob can confirm or deny this but I'm pretty sure that the Phantom ESC requires a lot more than wasted/unused energy from the alternator when it's actively being used. You make it sound like it's free and IMO it is not free at all. Cheap maybe, but free? not at all.

[Gary in NJ]

Originally Posted by Fast_Freddy

I'm sure that Rob can confirm or deny this but I'm pretty sure that the Phantom ESC requires a lot more than wasted/unused energy from the alternator when it's actively being used. You make it sound like it's free and IMO it is not free at all. Cheap maybe, but free? not at all.

If an alternator is turning (and the field is present) its making power, all of the time. It's the regulator (in our car the ECU) that controls the flow of power through a variable field. The field is almost never open. You will not wear out an alternator any faster whether the charging *system* is outputting 25% of the time or 70% of the time.

It's a use it or loose it system. In that regard it's free.

Also keep in mind that the 24V system for the ESC only receives a nominal trickle charge when idle. It only receives a full charge for a few seconds following engagement. As a result, the system is less taxing on the alternator then a rear window defogger which pulls current for 15 minutes.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by Gary in NJ

If an alternator is turning (and the field is present) its making power, all of the time. It's the regulator (in our car the ECU) that controls the flow of power through a variable field. The field is almost never open. You will not wear out an alternator any faster whether the charging *system* is outputting 25% of the time or 70% of the time.

It's a use it or loose it system. In that regard it's free.

Also keep in mind that the 24V system for the ESC only receives a nominal trickle charge when idle. It only receives a full charge for a few seconds following engagement. As a result, the system is less taxing on the alternator then a rear window defogger which pulls current for 15 minutes.

Interesting to know, though I always thought that the alternator would put variable load on the motor based on current demand. I.e. - esc kicks on, battery gets load, regulator increases requirement on alternator, alternator has to produce extra current, additional load put on motor. If alternator was constant load on the motor, where does that extra energy dissipate when you battery is charged up and you're idling in the parking lot? Thx


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free

[Gary in NJ]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

Interesting to know, though I always thought that the alternator would put variable load on the motor based on current demand. I.e. - esc kicks on, battery gets load, regulator increases requirement on alternator, alternator has to produce extra current, additional load put on motor. If alternator was constant load on the motor, where does that extra energy dissipate when you battery is charged up and you're idling in the parking lot? Thx


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free

It's the strength of the field (excitation) that determines the output of the alternator. The regulator/ECU determines the strength of the field via a hall effect sensor on the load side of the electrical system. The battery always receives a trickle charge, even when it is fully charged. Yes a fully loaded alternator does require more power (horsepower) to turn, but the beauty of the ESC is that when it is making power, the alternator is not. At WOT the ECU minimizes the load of certain accessories (like the AC and the alternator). Unlike a belt driven supercharger where the parasitic loss increases with demand.

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by Gary in NJ

It's the strength of the field (excitation) that determines the output of the alternator. The regulator/ECU determines the strength of the field via a hall effect sensor on the load side of the electrical system. The battery always receives a trickle charge, even when it is fully charged. Yes a fully loaded alternator does require more power (horsepower) to turn, but the beauty of the ESC is that when it is making power, the alternator is not. At WOT the ECU minimizes the load of certain accessories (like the AC and the alternator). Unlike a belt driven supercharger where the parasitic loss increases with demand.

So whats the deal with an alternator "clutch," then? Not sure if this is a real thing, but you seem to at least be throwing out the right terms. But, to explain in a simple form, that when the alternator isn't needed, its essentially just an idler pulley.

But wait, the engine, while running, gets its electricity from the alternator, so the alternator is always engaged...Ok, my brain stopped working. Someone get me some coffee, please!

[Hanni_0176]

The HTT has its compressor and turbine independent of one another, which I thought was interesting.

But technology is always advancing. I mean, if the HTT generates energy from the exhaust, while the ESC generates energy from the alternator... I could see potential in generating energy from both sources, no?

The biggest allure to the HTT, IMO, is the fact that it charges the battery at high engine speeds, allowing the car to recharge while under boost, whereas with the ESC, you lose charge under boost and gain it during idle or non-WOT. The HTT is track-friendly, while the ESC is not as track friendly. That's mainly why I posted it here... to see if there was some tech from the HTT that could possibly be applied to the ESC to allow it to charge while engaged somehow.

[Gary in NJ]

I don't like my answer in post #2492. Yes, during the vast majority of time the ESC batteries receive a trickle charge from the alternator with an insignificant load, but during the 5 to 10 second recharge period following engagement the alternator is putting our significant current.

If the HTT is making more power then it consumes, its a first.

[Hanni_0176]

Originally Posted by Gary in NJ

I don't like my answer in post #2492. Yes, during the vast majority of time the ESC batteries receive a trickle charge from the alternator with an insignificant load, but during the 5 to 10 second recharge period following engagement the alternator is putting our significant current.

If the HTT is making more power then it consumes, its a first.

When the driver depresses the throttle, the HTT initially acts like an electric supercharger. The compressor motor is powered from the energy storage medium allowing it to accelerate to full operating speed in <500 ms. This rate of acceleration eliminates the turbo lag which is a major limiting factor on the performance of standard turbocharged engines.

At high engine speeds there is more energy generated by the turbine than is required by the compressor. Under these conditions, the excess energy can be used to recharge the energy storage for the next acceleration phase or used to power some of the auxiliary loads such as an electric air conditioning system.

When combined with a variable geometry turbine, the back pressure on the engine can be varied according to the electrical demands of the vehicle and charge state of the energy storage medium.

Development is underway for replacing battery energy storage with a super capacitor which can be charged and discharged very quickly.

[fenton]

@Fast_Freddy

Its certainly not free but it is pretty close. The charge drawn from the alternator is 25a for single recharge or 50a for the double recharge. Underload this does not change as the dump batteries are isolated from the starter battery via the controller.

I believe I am essential running a tractor battery right now. The CCA is just a little lower than the stock battery.

We are going to try the blow through MAF today

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[Sojhinn]

On a side note. Any chance anyone knows any decent and reliable tuners in the Los Angeles/ San Diego area. Its getting difficult to find a way up to San Francisco to get a tune from @shiv@vishnu. (Unless maybe hes willing to cut me a crazy deal )

[Gary in NJ]

Originally Posted by Sojhinn

On a side note. Any chance anyone knows any decent and reliable tuners in the Los Angeles/ San Diego area. Its getting difficult to find a way up to San Francisco to get a tune from @shiv@vishnu. (Unless maybe hes willing to cut me a crazy deal )

There are several ECUTek Pro Tuners right in your area. Look at this map:

http://www.ecutek.com/Dealers.aspx

The pro tuners are the ones with the M in the locator flag. Take a look in the software section of the forums and see who has the best reputation.

[Sojhinn]

Originally Posted by Gary in NJ

There are several ECUTek Pro Tuners right in your area. Look at this map:

http://www.ecutek.com/Dealers.aspx

The pro tuners are the ones with the M in the locator flag. Take a look in the software section of the forums and see who has the best reputation.

Just talked to shiv. Looks like I'm driving up in the next few weeks. Rob and Fenton I will be going e85 within 3 weeks. Let's see what this thing can do!

[Sojhinn]

On another note. I added a relay to my system. Did the same as jpit and routed a wire to the cigarette lighter in the glove box. Just so no one else makes the same mistake. The shielded wire does not have the same color scheme. I could of spent time testing continuity on the wires but just played it safe. Working great!

[fenton]

Originally Posted by Sojhinn

Just talked to shiv. Looks like I'm driving up in the next few weeks. Rob and Fenton I will be going e85 within 3 weeks. Let's see what this thing can do!

Looking forward to the results. I think 15 to 20 may not be out of the question though with the proper aggressive tune.

Are you tuning on dynojet or something else?

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk