Kraftwerks Rotrex Supercharger Discussion

[RaLo]

Originally Posted by utekineir

Fixed that for you.

haha, yea, we definitely have different priorities, which is cool, again to each their own.. i drive my car, though, no time for parking-lot pimping. One thing to keep in mind: polishing mechanical parts is a bad idea for heat dissipation, it traps it. But you dont have to worry too much about that since your car is parked, right?

ANYWAY... Kraftwerks, your kit is the wallpaper on my work computer, it will be mine

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Unicorn

Dear djdnz,

Are you stating that the Vortech supercharger kit will work fine at 1C but fail miserably -1C?

Frankly this sounds ridiculous.

Yours faithfully,
Unicorn

Did he say +1 deg C would work fine? No he didn't. He said that negative wouldn't work.

Frankly, your attitude is what's ridiculous. Grow up.

[mtimney]

Any word on an upgrade path that doesn't involve a larger charger? I assume you can just add a larger pulley on this one like other SC kits to hit 12psi?

Also, this is all on stock injectors and pump. Would you think going to 12psi would require mods to these?

Also...given the air filter being inside the bumper, I'm assuming you'd have to take the bumper off to replace the filter? (I don't know much about filters like the one shown. Do they need replaced as often as typical drop-in filters?)

[cantholdanymore]

Originally Posted by gmsii

Here is a high level and objective overview....Kraftwerks was a joint venture between Group-A Autosports and Oscar Jackson Sr.
Slow product development, accounting issues, and differences in management philosophy utlimately led to the dissolution of said partnership which was settled in mediation. Group-A Autosports retained ALL rights and assets of Kraftwerks. Oscar Jackson Sr. was barred from competing directly with existing KW products for a period of two years. In return Jackson's personally guaranteed debt obligation was forgiven.

Today KW and JR are completely independent companies. In the community driven market place, it takes an organization to support the tribe. KW is built on a staff of approximately 30 R&D, sales, customer service, warehousing, and accounting personnel. JR is pretty much Oscar Sr & Jr. ....Draw your own conclusions.

Also, the BRZ/FRS kit marks the first kit where the two companies have independently developed a supercharger kit that would compete directly against the others offering. Unlike some of the current kits KW offers (06 Civic, S2000, Miata, etc- which were all extensively improved/redesigned and reworked since the departure of the Jacksons) the KW BRZ/FRS was designed from a clean sheet of paper; free from the haunts of any remaining Jackson legacy. If you strip out all the marketing mumbo jumbo and simply make a side by side chart of features and benefits of the two kits, you will clearly see a difference in design philosophy, execution, forethought, and nuance. We believe the KW kit is the clear winner.

Objective

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by mtimney

Any word on an upgrade path that doesn't involve a larger charger? I assume you can just add a larger pulley on this one like other SC kits to hit 12psi?

Also, this is all on stock injectors and pump. Would you think going to 12psi would require mods to these?

Also...given the air filter being inside the bumper, I'm assuming you'd have to take the bumper off to replace the filter? (I don't know much about filters like the one shown. Do they need replaced as often as typical drop-in filters?)

If this kit is in line with the past C30-94 kits of the past, you'll need to get the larger C38 for more power. 10psi is about the limit while remaining in spec. You *can* spin the supercharger higher and make more power, but you'll be out of the manufacturer warranty, and risk the supercharger failing prematurely. You'll also need your own tune.

[NoppyNop]

Originally Posted by mtimney

Also...given the air filter being inside the bumper, I'm assuming you'd have to take the bumper off to replace the filter? (I don't know much about filters like the one shown. Do they need replaced as often as typical drop-in filters?)

Looks like you would have to remove the bumper to service the filter every time. Usually most aftermarket filters can be cleaned, oiled and reused, while others need to be replaced.

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

If this kit is in line with the past C30-94 kits of the past, you'll need to get the larger C38 for more power. 10psi is about the limit while remaining in spec. You *can* spin the supercharger higher and make more power, but you'll be out of the manufacturer warranty, and risk the supercharger failing prematurely. You'll also need your own tune.

Wait, are you saying this supercharger doesn't have any headroom with smaller pulleys like the Vortech does for example? From what I understand this S/C is rated at 435 bhp so there should be plenty of headroom from the stock unit right?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Sonolin

Wait, are you saying this supercharger doesn't have any headroom with smaller pulleys like the Vortech does for example? From what I understand this S/C is rated at 435 bhp so there should be plenty of headroom from the stock unit right?

Superchargers are rated in flow. While the supercharger may be able to flow 435 hp worth of air, it doesn't mean the engine can make that much power.

For example, the C30-94 at the same boost level (and supercharger RPM) makes close to 400hp on the S2000, while it makes closer to 300 on the FR-S/BRZ.

This applies to all C30-94 kits.

[gmsii]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Why do you believe that Kraftwerks is the clear winner? What design choices make the Kraftwerks kit superior to the Jackson Racing kit? I haven't been able to get any specific information from Kraftwerks myself, so if you know something I don't (which you seem to, and I'm always open to learning more), please let the community know!

Mike- it would serve you well to read the KW flyer posted in this thread. Nonetheless here is a short list of differences

1) KW uses a cold air intake. JR does not.
2) KW uses an independent drive system. If a supercharger belt breaks, you can still drive the car home. Not the case with JR
3) KW can use the C38 blower. Not sure if the JR can or cannot
4) KW uses a toothed supercharger drive belt. We try to use a toothed drive when possible because it applies less radial load on the supercharger nose bearing, and it eliminates slip. Slip (using serpentine belt) may not be an issue with the C30 chargers, but we have seen slippage on the dyno when using the C38 blowers with serpentine belts.
5) KW uses an offset supercharger location which allows the use of large diameter cold side tubing with less bends. When the supercharger is mounted in the center location and shares the same drive belt as the engine, the cold side intake tube requires multiple compound bends and 'hump' to clear the supercharger, drive belt, and the additional pulleys. As a result the JR has that funky looking silicone hose connected to the throttle body.
6) KW uses a 2.5" diameter tube coming off the hotside of the compressor. This is possible because the KW kit comes with a new washer bottle which allows the larger tubing to clear. It appears JR uses a 2" tube which we have found to be a restriction as horsepower increases. This has been proven by enthusiasts pushing the output of their 06 Civic KW kits.
7) KW uses an 11 row high efficiency/ high flow intercooler. JR kit comes with an 8-row intercooler (maybe 9 row, but not sure)
8) There will be another important option with our kit that we cannot reveal at this time. This important option will be available only thru KW and not JR.

i think i covered most of the differences above. pretty much all the benefits touted by JR are inherent to the KW kits as well (ie simple bolt in, quiet operation, CARB pending, etc).

the KW will be slightly noisier because of the toothed drive, but the sound is significantly quieter than either vortech or innovate options; i would hardly classify the sound of the KW kit as a handicap, nor do i find 'whisper quiet' as a terribly meaningful selling point in the performance enthusiast market space.

[gmsii]

Originally Posted by djdnz

Hey gmsii thanks for all the info, the community benefits a lot from this kind of discussion!

Can you comment on the washer bottle change? Does it require cutting the factory bottle? Also, what is the capacity vs stock?

Oh and lastly, since the Vortech is not capable of negative temperatures and I live in Canada, I was turned off from the Vortech. Can you please comment on the cold weather range that the Rotrex can work within?

the KW washer bottle is completely new molded piece. not sure about the exact volume, but i guess a bit smaller in volume.
more than likely we will sell the bottle separately for enthusiasts with other forced induction set-ups that need room for larger tubing.

the minimum oil temp for rotrex is -40*F ( -40*c)...rotrex is a danish company and i think it gets pretty damn cold in denmark so it makes sense that the head unit will be stable at those temps

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by gmsii

Mike- it would serve you well to read the KW flyer posted in this thread. Nonetheless here is a short list of differences

1) KW uses a cold air intake. JR does not.
2) KW uses an independent drive system. If a supercharger belt breaks, you can still drive the car home. Not the case with JR
3) KW can use the C38 blower. Not sure if the JR can or cannot
4) KW uses a toothed supercharger drive belt. We try to use a toothed drive when possible because it applies less radial load on the supercharger nose bearing, and it eliminates slip. Slip (using serpentine belt) may not be an issue with the C30 chargers, but we have seen slippage on the dyno when using the C38 blowers with serpentine belts.
5) KW uses an offset supercharger location which allows the use of large diameter cold side tubing with less bends. When the supercharger is mounted in the center location and shares the same drive belt as the engine, the cold side intake tube requires multiple compound bends and 'hump' to clear the supercharger, drive belt, and the additional pulleys. As a result the JR has that funky looking silicone hose connected to the throttle body.
6) KW uses a 2.5" diameter tube coming off the hotside of the compressor. This is possible because the KW kit comes with a new washer bottle which allows the larger tubing to clear. It appears JR uses a 2" tube which we have found to be a restriction as horsepower increases. This has been proven by enthusiasts pushing the output of their 06 Civic KW kits.
7) KW uses an 11 row high efficiency/ high flow intercooler. JR kit comes with an 8-row intercooler (maybe 9 row, but not sure)
8) There will be another important option with our kit that we cannot reveal at this time. This important option will be available only thru KW and not JR.

i think i covered most of the differences above. pretty much all the benefits touted by JR are inherent to the KW kits as well (ie simple bolt in, quiet operation, CARB pending, etc).

the KW will be slightly noisier because of the toothed drive, but the sound is significantly quieter than either vortech or innovate options; i would hardly classify the sound of the KW kit as a handicap, nor do i find 'whisper quiet' as a terribly meaningful selling point in the performance enthusiast market space.

1) the output of the kits seem nearly identical, so where is the advantage in this?
2) A belt should never break... if it does, something is VERY wrong
3) That certainly is an advantage if the Jackson Racing kit cannot.
4) how much wrap was there when the slip occured?
5) The two kits are making nearly identical output, despite the "disadvantages" of the Jackson Racing kit
6) Again, the kits are still making near identical output. Do you have any dynos of the C38 in action on your system?
7) Room for expansion is always nice. However, the kit in question is using a C30, and the output is still nearly identical, despite the increased intercooler size.
8) I'm excited to see Kraftwerks bring more to the table! Competition is always great for consumers.

To me, the advantages seem to be a lower price, and room for a C38 when that version of the kit comes to market.

[gmsii]

Originally Posted by cantholdanymore

Objective

yeah...i know it sounds pretty subjective, but the fact of the matter is that during the partnership period oscar jackson was the head of r&d and the lynchpin in all design decisions...it has a been a lot of work cleaning things up on the r&d and design side of things (nightmare would be an appropriate description), but things are well on track now with improved performance and reliability; which has resulted in significant increases in sales.

[utekineir]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

2) A belt should never break... if it does, something is VERY wrong

So, all the posts of innovative and vortech users breaking belts?

They all have something VERY wrong?


Not looking to play fanboy for one side or the other, just want to make the right choice when money gets spent. Have 0 supercharger experience, only turbos. Want to go sc for that reason, and the separate belt of the kw has been its main selling point to me so far solely because of all the belt breaking posts on the existing kits.

[gmsii]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

1) the output of the kits seem nearly identical, so where is the advantage in this?
2) A belt should never break... if it does, something is VERY wrong
3) That certainly is an advantage if the Jackson Racing kit cannot.
4) how much wrap was there when the slip occured?
5) The two kits are making nearly identical output, despite the "disadvantages" of the Jackson Racing kit
6) Again, the kits are still making near identical output. Do you have any dynos of the C38 in action on your system?
7) Room for expansion is always nice. However, the kit in question is using a C30, and the output is still nearly identical, despite the increased intercooler size.
8) I'm excited to see Kraftwerks bring more to the table! Competition is always great for consumers.

To me, the advantages seem to be a lower price, and room for a C38 when that version of the kit comes to market.

1) the cold air area inside the bumper is consistently 20* cooler than drawing from the engine bay....easiest way to compare is have two cars on the same dyno before and after the kit install, and then, people will still argue the results. since you are in socal, we would be more than happy to work with you to test cars on our dyno as opposed to having interpret and correlate the high numbers spit out by church automotive's dyno (JR's defacto test center)
2) something doesnt necessarily have to be very wrong to break a belt. look at the vortech kits. for whatever reasons beyond their control, the pulleys were seizing up after some time. there are some claims that it was a counterfeit bearings used by the pulley supplier (ie gates or dayco)
3) look into that and let us know
4) the slip was noticed on other vehicles using the C38 charger and not specifically the BRZ/FRS...the C38's are best used with 8 ribbed belts with plenty of wrap and tension....when i speak of slip, it is not a continuous slip, but a momentary slip when chopping in and out of the throttle (load).
5,6,7) see 1) above...as of yet we have not finalized the pulley size for the base config so dyno numbers are more for curiousity at this point. but both KW and JR dynographs can give enthusiasts a view of what the power will be like.

upgradeability and headroom was a key design factor of the KW system. i think you will start to see more separation between the kits when you actually start pushing higher power outputs above and beyond the base config.