Kraftwerks Rotrex Supercharger Discussion

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by gmsii

Mike-
No offense, but your assertion that Jackson Racing is THE north american Rotrex distributor is PATENTLY FALSE! They are 'a' distributor among a network of rotrex distributors, of which Kraftwerks is the largest in North America by sales volume and operational size. we would appreciate you redacting your misinformation as well as refraining from further thread jacking the KW thread with little JR insertions. things can get ugly real fast in this thread if you continue to speak out of turn regarding what Jackson is or isnt.

It appears that Jackson Racing is no longer the sole distributor in North America. I always did find it odd that Skunk2 was getting rotrex blowers from Jackson Racing, and now it makes sense.

I stand corrected.

[digital_assassin]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Jackson Racing is the Rotrex distributor in North America; they can answer any and all questions you have about warranty.

I'm pretty sure JR isn't the only distributor unless something has changed. I'm on my phone so I can't get the info pulled up all the way but Rotrex lists a company in Norco as a distributor. Kind of shitty to come into a competitors product discussion and thread crap on it implying they get their product from Jackson is how it comes across.

[gmsii]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

Wasn't Kraftwerks formed by Jackson Racing originally? What's the full story behind that? Something bad happened and they broke up and now it seems there is a grudge between the two companies now and they are competing against each other directly.

Here is a high level and objective overview....Kraftwerks was a joint venture between Group-A Autosports and Oscar Jackson Sr.
Slow product development, accounting issues, and differences in management philosophy utlimately led to the dissolution of said partnership which was settled in mediation. Group-A Autosports retained ALL rights and assets of Kraftwerks. Oscar Jackson Sr. was barred from competing directly with existing KW products for a period of two years. In return Jackson's personally guaranteed debt obligation was forgiven.

Today KW and JR are completely independent companies. In the community driven market place, it takes an organization to support the tribe. KW is built on a staff of approximately 30 R&D, sales, customer service, warehousing, and accounting personnel. JR is pretty much Oscar Sr & Jr. ....Draw your own conclusions.

Also, the BRZ/FRS kit marks the first kit where the two companies have independently developed a supercharger kit that would compete directly against the others offering. Unlike some of the current kits KW offers (06 Civic, S2000, Miata, etc- which were all extensively improved/redesigned and reworked since the departure of the Jacksons) the KW BRZ/FRS was designed from a clean sheet of paper; free from the haunts of any remaining Jackson legacy. If you strip out all the marketing mumbo jumbo and simply make a side by side chart of features and benefits of the two kits, you will clearly see a difference in design philosophy, execution, forethought, and nuance. We believe the KW kit is the clear winner.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by gmsii

Here is a high level and objective overview....Kraftwerks was a joint venture between Group-A Autosports and Oscar Jackson Sr.
Slow product development, accounting issues, and differences in management philosophy utlimately led to the dissolution of said partnership which was settled in mediation. Group-A Autosports retained ALL rights and assets of Kraftwerks. Oscar Jackson Sr. was barred from competing directly with existing KW products for a period of two years. In return Jackson's personally guaranteed debt obligation was forgiven.

Today KW and JR are completely independent companies. In the community driven market place, it takes an organization to support the tribe. KW is built on a staff of approximately 30 R&D, sales, customer service, warehousing, and accounting personnel. JR is pretty much Oscar Sr & Jr. ....Draw your own conclusions.

Also, the BRZ/FRS kit marks the first kit where the two companies have independently developed a supercharger kit that would compete directly against the others offering. Unlike some of the current kits KW offers (06 Civic, S2000, Miata, etc- which were all extensively improved/redesigned and reworked since the departure of the Jacksons) the KW BRZ/FRS was designed from a clean sheet of paper; free from the haunts of any remaining Jackson legacy. If you strip out all the marketing mumbo jumbo and simply make a side by side chart of features and benefits of the two kits, you will clearly see a difference in design philosophy, execution, forethought, and nuance. We believe the KW kit is the clear winner.

What improvements and changes were made to the KW kits? Specifically, I'd like to know what was changed on the S2000 kit.

Why do you believe that Kraftwerks is the clear winner? What design choices make the Kraftwerks kit superior to the Jackson Racing kit? I haven't been able to get any specific information from Kraftwerks myself, so if you know something I don't (which you seem to, and I'm always open to learning more), please let the community know!

[ATL BRZ]

No offense to anyone, but the more I look at the offset SC placement and secondary belt and the giant mounting bracket included in the KW kit the more I see it as a big over-complication for two seemingly non-existent issues (intake air temps and belt slip). IATs will be lower than stock with both kits since they are intercooled with blow-through MAF, and JR kit testers haven't had any belt slip issues on and off track. It also has me wondering if JR did more track testing than KW and as a result, JR made the conscious decision to keep their kit simple. They are both well executed kits in their own way.

All things considered, what I'm seeing is that the two kits aren't very different when it boils down to the performance increases over stock at 9 psi.

I'm still very undecided between the two kits as a personal choice should I ever go FI.

[digital_assassin]

Only time will tell if either kit has a better design philosophy over the other. After seeing all the belt breakage on the other kits this one was a no brainer for me. If I shred a belt I can still get home without having to screw with the car on the side of the road.

I've already ordered the KW kit so this is just a curiosity and not a decision maker but I'd be interested to see how the crankshaft pulley looks since it supports a second belt and how much it weighs.

On a similar note, I'd like to see more pictures of the JR kit. One top down shot angled from the front doesn't give a whole lot of information as to how the kit comes together. How big is the intercooler, how close is the intake tube to all the moving parts, how does the s/c mount. Is it upgradeable or is the FMIC supplied only good for the C30. I'll ask these questions on that thread and see what can be provided.

[gmsii]

Originally Posted by digital_assassin

Only time will tell if either kit has a better design philosophy over the other. After seeing all the belt breakage on the other kits this one was a no brainer for me. If I shred a belt I can still get home without having to screw with the car on the side of the road.

I've already ordered the KW kit so this is just a curiosity and not a decision maker but I'd be interested to see how the crankshaft pulley looks since it supports a second belt and how much it weighs.

On a similar note, I'd like to see more pictures of the JR kit. One top down shot angled from the front doesn't give a whole lot of information as to how the kit comes together. How big is the intercooler, how close is the intake tube to all the moving parts, how does the s/c mount. Is it upgradeable or is the FMIC supplied only good for the C30. I'll ask these questions on that thread and see what can be provided.

regarding the crank pulley...it is actually a steel pulley hub with an outer gear machined from aluminum. the total weight and rotating mass (moment of inertia) is negligible. if any thing the additional belt aids to dampen crankshaft vibrations.

judging from pictures of their kit, the JR uses an 8 row intercooler (maybe 9). The KW kit uses an 11 row high flow cooler for better cooling and has been used effectively on applications making up to 460whp (ie 8th and 9th gen Civic Si kits). A larger intercooler will be available for custom or racing applications using the C38 supercharger

the JR kit also appears to use a 2" diameter hot side pipe into the intercooler. from our experience with other kit designs, 2" is a horsepower restrictor. the KW kit uses a 2.5" diameter hot side pipe. this is made possible because the KW includes a new washer bottle allowing the larger tubing to be routed. all the KW tubing is free and clear from any moving parts. take a look at the intake tube going into the throttle body; its low profile and straight shot going into the tb. the offset design affords us all sorts of belt clearance

[gmsii]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

What improvements and changes were made to the KW kits? Specifically, I'd like to know what was changed on the S2000 kit.

below is a PARTIAL list of design improvements made to KW kits since departure of Jacksons:
1) miata kits - significant increase in power, intercooler as standard feature of all kits, revised fueling system, simplified tubing and bracket configs that unified 5 different tubing layouts, changed design of a bracket for added strength and reliability, changed pulley spec for additional reliability
2) 06 civic kit - prior to actual launch the design was modified to reduce tubing and simplify tube routing, power was increased from early specification, brackets and other parts were simplified to allow the kit to be made more cost effectively so savings could be passed down to dealers and customers
3) s2000 kit - completely redesigned. now the kit uses an independent drive system using a toothed belt...we went to the toothed belt because the serpentine belt slips (apparent on the dyno) when using the large C38 blowers with the factory width belts. unlike the previous version the new kit can use both C30 and C38 blowers and is also right hand drive compatible. the overall system has been significantly simplified and designed for added reliability. also standard with the new kit is larger more efficient intercooler

[djdnz]

Originally Posted by gmsii

the KW kit uses a 2.5" diameter hot side pipe. this is made possible because the KW includes a new washer bottle allowing the larger tubing to be routed. all the KW tubing is free and clear from any moving parts. take a look at the intake tube going into the throttle body; its low profile and straight shot going into the tb. the offset design affords us all sorts of belt clearance

Hey gmsii thanks for all the info, the community benefits a lot from this kind of discussion!

Can you comment on the washer bottle change? Does it require cutting the factory bottle? Also, what is the capacity vs stock?

Oh and lastly, since the Vortech is not capable of negative temperatures and I live in Canada, I was turned off from the Vortech. Can you please comment on the cold weather range that the Rotrex can work within?

[Unicorn]

Originally Posted by djdnz

Oh and lastly, since the Vortech is not capable of negative temperatures

Dear djdnz,

Are you stating that the Vortech supercharger kit will work fine at 1C but fail miserably -1C?

Frankly this sounds ridiculous.

Yours faithfully,
Unicorn

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by gmsii

3) s2000 kit - completely redesigned. now the kit uses an independent drive system using a toothed belt...we went to the toothed belt because the serpentine belt slips (apparent on the dyno) when using the large C38 blowers with the factory width belts. unlike the previous version the new kit can use both C30 and C38 blowers and is also right hand drive compatible. the overall system has been significantly simplified and designed for added reliability. also standard with the new kit is larger more efficient intercooler

How do you address the fueling problems of the 06+ S2000? Increasing potential output does nothing when additional fuel is not available with heavy modification. Is there a canned tune available? Dynos?

I have yet to see this kit actually for sale and would love to see one and feel it in person.

[xxscaxx]

Isn't the KW bracketing in order for clearance, better piping routing, and the ability to upgrade the supercharger without any issues?

Sounds like a win to me.

[RaLo]

Originally Posted by empower-auto

I'll pay the extra to receive it polished. Function AND Form .. unless you're cheap

haha, definitely not cheap, but am never one to waste money on useless things. I never drive with my hood off the car, and shiny stuff is an IMMEDIATE red flag when it's inspection time, so why waste money on covered bling? still, to each their own...

[utekineir]

Originally Posted by empower-auto

I'll pay the extra to receive it polished. Function AND Form .. unless you don't care about sitting in a parking lot with your hood popped having other dudes stroke your ****.

Fixed that for you.