100% DI Failure with Nurburgring rentals

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

That doesn't mean much at all. You could hold the engine at 7000rpm at full throttle for a week and it wouldn't damage the seals.

What? Are you saying that because he runs 20 psi of boost, had the crank bearing fail.. That he doesn't shift too fast at redline or hasn't done anything to cause detonation or DI seal failure? Sounds like he's running his car hard like the rest of us.. Much worse actually and has no issues with the injectors.
Or maybe he just babies his car with all that boost and keeps it under 4k rpms..
I highly doubt it.

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by chadstyle

People are always saying this but have no basis..I take my car to the dealer all the time for work and I have 4 maps, 2 of which are E85, and have flashed my ECU countless times. The dealer can't "see" that when they're servicing the car!! They would have to dissect every line of code to find where there is a difference and honestly people, do you think dealers are sitting there analyzing every ECU that comes in?

If you're paranoid, flash back to stock before service. They will "see" and event if they start digging but an event could also be a simple dealer flash done previously or by another dealership.

That said, stick with a reputable tuner like FA20Club and you're good. If you're still scared, sell the car!! It's not for you.

You missed the whole point.. Your saying they won't void your warranty cause they can't see your tune... I'm saying that a tune will void your warranty.
Your just betting you won't get caught. See the difference.. And it's not about being scared or paranoid or having bought the wrong car..
I don't need or want a tune for this car.. It's fine the way it is..

[ft_sjo]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

What? Are you saying that because he runs 20 psi of boost, had the crank bearing fail.. That he doesn't shift too fast at redline or hasn't done anything to cause detonation or DI seal failure? Sounds like he's running his car hard like the rest of us.. Much worse actually and has no issues with the injectors.
Or maybe he just babies his car with all that boost and keeps it under 4k rpms..
I highly doubt it.

I'm not saying anything. I'm not here to guess what people are doing.

The poster didn't mention performing any of the actions which are known to cause the problem, therefore the rest of it 'didn't mean much' in the context of this thread.

I hope this clarifies.

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

I'm not saying anything. I'm not here to guess what people are doing.

The poster didn't mention performing any of the actions which are known to cause the problem, therefore the rest of it 'didn't mean much' in the context of this thread.

I hope this clarifies.

With everyone here crying that our engines and injectors are sure to be destroyed even with spirited "normal" driving ... And that we should all pull our injectors and check for damage... Blah blah blah...
Well.. Somebody did.. Someone with lots of miles and obviously hard running.. And a manual tranny.
And the injectors are fine... So now that doesn't count for anything?
Its a damn good example of the issue not being as pervasive as some are trying to make out..

[ft_sjo]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

So now that doesn't count for anything?

It may count for something, it may not. Without more information from the poster and/or logs which demonstrate the transients and/or knock events occuring, then neither you or I will know.

The big problem with all these threads is a bunch of people not actually understand the problem yet creating a bunch of hysteria.

YES THERE IS A PROBLEM.

NO YOU MAY NOT BE AFFECTED BY IT DEPENDING ON YOUR DRIVING STYLE.


Different people have different ideas of what "driving hard" means. The problem manifests itself with VERY SPECIFIC driving behaviour. It's a combination of things that have to occur in a very narrow window of time.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

You missed the whole point.. Your saying they won't void your warranty cause they can't see your tune... I'm saying that a tune will void your warranty.
Your just betting you won't get caught. See the difference.. And it's not about being scared or paranoid or having bought the wrong car..
I don't need or want a tune for this car.. It's fine the way it is..

Welcome to the world of Subaru ownership. It is absolute common place for WRX/STI owners to invest in an aftermarket tune to get rid of the factory tune's detonation issues. Hell one owner dedicated a few months of his life inventing Rom-Raider because the first WRX factory tunes were so bad.

I am not surprised at all that the turbo owner had no DI failure at 20psi boost, the FI tuners are reporting completely tuning out the factory engine knock because they need less timing and aren't tied to emission regs.

As far as the posters who claim they understand the problem based on a leaked memo from a field engineer in South Aftrica, ask yourself why corporate has made no public acknowledgement or TSB in going on 5 months? This isn't merely a "shifting" issue. The factory tune detonates too much, runs in closed loop too long, and relies too much on knock correction in order to meet stupid emission regs.

Its time to move on and accept that we are no longer Toyota guys or converted Honda guys, we are Subaru guys and Subaru guys buy an aftermarket tune so their engines last longer.

[thill]

If the South Africa article is accurate (and it is really the only substantial data we have) it will be a pretty extreme case to cause the injectors to fail, and most likely not possible with normal driving on roads that have a speed limit of less than 80mph. On a track with some large straights were you can easily push the car over 100mph? Definitely possible if you are upshifting quickly from 3-4, 4-5, 5-6 from 7000K+ rpm to 5200+ rpm. And even then I believe you have to push the temperature of the injectors above 150 degrees Celsisus (so very aggressive driving for an extended period of time). We know this is possible because people are doing it and their injectors are failing. So if you track the car and push the car hard enough to meet the criteria you could easily end up with bad injectors or possibly a blown engine. Regardless of how few people this will happen too (and I believe it to be a small percentage) the issue should be fixed by Toyota/Subaru.

[regal]

Originally Posted by thill

If the South Africa article is accurate (and it is really the only substantial data we have) it will be a pretty extreme case to cause the injectors to fail, and most likely not possible with normal driving on roads that have a speed limit of less than 80mph. On a track with some large straights were you can easily push the car over 100mph? Definitely possible if you are upshifting quickly from 3-4, 4-5, 5-6 from 7000K+ rpm to 5200+ rpm. And even then I believe you have to push the temperature of the injectors above 150 degrees Celsisus (so very aggressive driving for an extended period of time). We know this is possible because people are doing it and their injectors are failing. So if you track the car and push the car hard enough to meet the criteria you could easily end up with bad injectors or possibly a blown engine. Regardless of how few people this will happen too (and I believe it to be a small percentage) the issue should be fixed by Toyota/Subaru.

Its not the only data we have. Logs of the factory tune show high detonation even with the SA flash.

Google: "subaru factory tune detonation" to get a feel for Subaru ownership. Its not a big deal, just invest in a tune.

[ft_sjo]

Originally Posted by regal

The factory tune detonates too much, runs in closed loop too long, and relies too much on knock correction in order to meet stupid emission regs.

Please outline your testings and/or results/datalogs which relate to your statement.

I'm quite happy to go out and show exactly when the vehicle dets under what circumstances.

[Sport-Tech]

Sounds like the biggest issue for most people may not be the shifting itself, but doing a rapid throttle tip-in after lifting off the throttle momentarily at high RPM - this is likely to be a far more common occurrence than a fast upshift from 3rd at 7400 rpm which requires you to be at 84 mph.

According to that SA document: WOT >off >WOT within a .6 sec window and engine revs above 5200 rpm are the 2 conditions necessary and sufficient to cause the combustion knocking that damages the seals. It then goes on to say that this occurs under fast 7400 rpm upshifts from 3rd gear and above. But it seems that in DD you are far more likely to cause these conditions by going off-throttle at high RPM and then getting back on-throttle within that .6 sec window without shifting - after all how often are you going to be upshifting at 84 mph or higher?

[thill]

Originally Posted by regal

Welcome to the world of Subaru ownership. It is absolute common place for WRX/STI owners to invest in an aftermarket tune to get rid of the factory tune's detonation issues. Hell one owner dedicated a few months of his life inventing Rom-Raider because the first WRX factory tunes were so bad.

I am not surprised at all that the turbo owner had no DI failure at 20psi boost, the FI tuners are reporting completely tuning out the factory engine knock because they need less timing and aren't tied to emission regs.

As far as the posters who claim they understand the problem based on a leaked memo from a field engineer in South Aftrica, ask yourself why corporate has made no public acknowledgement or TSB in going on 5 months? This isn't merely a "shifting" issue. The factory tune detonates too much, runs in closed loop too long, and relies too much on knock correction in order to meet stupid emission regs.

Its time to move on and accept that we are no longer Toyota guys or converted Honda guys, we are Subaru guys and Subaru guys buy an aftermarket tune so their engines last longer.

Since you seem to have the data, what is the failure rate for WRX engines due to bad factory tunes? I know lots of WRX owners running on the original tune and none of them have had major engine issues that I am aware of. We can post opinions and speculation all day long, so unless you have hard data it comes across as a sky is falling Subaru vs Toyota rant more than anything else.

[regal]

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

Please outline your testings and/or results/datalogs which relate to your statement.

I'm quite happy to go out and show exactly when the vehicle dets under what circumstances.

I haven't bought a tune yet but most tuners are logging half the detonation with their tunes vs factory and zero detonation with forced induction (I've been discussing the issue with the tuning experts.)

There are several threads in the engine tech forums which show the factory detonation, even a How to remove the closed loop to open loop delay with brz-edit. Google "subaru factory tune detonation" if you are interested. Out of place for this subforum.

[ft_sjo]

@regal Thanks, but i'm already somewhat familiar with them as I tune my own car.

[ayau]

Maybe Subaru was right from the beginning when they said they didn't want direct injection in their engine.