100% DI Failure with Nurburgring rentals

[suaveflooder]

Originally Posted by FRSBRZGT86FAN

Nice job so in reality there isn't much to worry about as long as you have the warranty? Then if it the DI does fail they will simply replace all the damaged internals and add a new ecu tune to prevent it from ever happening again? I am pretty sure scion/toyota have always been forgiving of modifiers working and there cars, hell scion is built on the fact of customization, in fact most of the reps stretch the warranty to help them, I agree with the fact Subaru isn't very forgiving as well.

Exactly. Sounds like it's not something they will mess with until something goes wrong....which is odd. I'm hoping this will change. Even if it's not something most of us will experience with every day driving, it would be nice to make it something that NONE of us will.

Originally Posted by ayau

Is there a link to this similar TSB somewhere? I'm interested in reading about it.

I sent my guy an email. If I can get him to lend me a copy, or attachment, I will post it.

[rice_classic]

To everyone else reading, please ignore this post as it is absolutely and unashamedly off topic.

Originally Posted by thill

LOL, trust me my other car is a Honda and there is just as much paranoia there. You would think that every transmission Honda makes is utter garbage and will fail within 20K miles.. It is even worse there than here.

No, no it isn't. D series, B series and H-series boxes are roughly considered "bullet proof".. I know this because I race them. The S2k box is considered one the greatest 6sp manual boxes in the known universe and the only "sensitive" manual boxes were the K series and only under full race conditions. I've seen 3 CRX's, 1 accord, 1 prelude, 2 integras, NSX and a multitude of Civics to over 100k miles without so much as needing a new clutch.

If you're Honda transmission lasts less than 20k, well then I'd say the problem isn't in the transmission.



EDIT: Nothing changed, but adding clarity: Referring to B and H series boxes as "bullet proof" is a bit incredulous so I need to retrace my steps a bit, however with the right fluid they can be beaten on pretty relentlessly in full race conditions for quite some time (multiple race seasons) before needing to be refreshed. The K-Boxes are "sensitive" in that in full race mode, one good over-zealous shift will end its day but the RSX at the 25 Hours of Thunderhill finished very well without tranny problems.

Ok, apologies for derailment. I will refain from further posting in this thread but when someone said the Honda transmission can't go 20k miles I just had to chime in because that is pretty ridiculous.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by denkigrve

I understand that it's throttle changes at above 5200+ causing the "issue." I'm also pretty sure that being in 2nd gear at 5200+ and shifting gears is the same wear on the motor as 5200+ in any other gear. It's not like the car never shifts gears in an Auto-x especially since Blaine usually launches his car at 5k+ RPMs. It's not as much impact sure, but it's still there. So in theory it means this either is a really extreme case (NB ring is a hella long course, and lots of laps is A LOT of wear on the motor) or there was a parts supplier change on some cars that's causing an issue.

My money is on a parts supplier change or addition to keep up with demand.

thats not entirely accurate because shifting to first gear from second will require you to be lower than 5200 rpm. shifts up to third arent nearly as common on an auto x course as they are on a road course. at least thats just what i gather.

[NetMagi]

I drive the piss out of my car every time I get in it. That's why I bought it.

"Escargot, my car go, one-sixty, swiftly. Wreck it buy a new one"

except it's Toyota's dime if it happens before 5yr/60k :P

I think we all have such different views, because we all "think" of our cars in different ways. For some people, this is their daily driver, they stretched the bank to buy it, and in their mind it better last forever and be perfectly built. For others, they love and respect it, but they'll move to a new one or another car b4 the warranty is up . . . so who cares. For others yet, this is a second vehicle, or a "toy", and if it falls apart, they or Toyota replace it, but life goes on.

Or, maybe I'm just too tired to make sense.

-Rich H.

[ft_sjo]

Originally Posted by Vmax911

It appears that the detonation occurs when you get back on the throttle above 5200 RPM, when the tip-in table is diasabled.

If I go WOT to 7K, then shift and hit the throttle again at, say, 5K there is not detonation (tip-in table is enabled)

If I go WOT to 7K, then shift and hit the throttle again at, say, 5.5K (different gear ratio obviously) then detonation is possible.

If I go WOT to 6K, brain fart and let off the gas, then go WOT throttle again, ther IS possible detonation due to the change in throttle angle and the tip-in table disabled.

Is this how you guys understand it as well?

That is the exact behaviour.

However, you can also get tip-in det at lower engine speeds in certain scenarios. I've not yet pin-pointed exactly where, but I think it's something to do with the trims. Either that or the adaptive advance multiplier knocks it back enough the first time you do it to stop it happening again for a while.

[BlaineWasHere]

So I've got 35K miles with over 50 autoX events and my car has had a lot of throttle manipulation when above 5K PRMs. Tons.

The fact of the matter is more people are beating their cars and having no problems, than the beat on cars that are having problems.

I will definitively say this. I drive somewhat spiritedly and beat the piss out of my car at autoX, but that still doesn't compare to consistent track duty, not even close.

[ft_sjo]

@BlaineWasHere - Then it's either a matter of time, or you're not shifting fast enough to cause the problem.

I'm sure if a few people who don't think they have an issue did some datalogging (for knock) they may be unpleasantly surprised.

[Gixxersixxerman]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

To everyone else reading, please ignore this post as it is absolutely and unashamedly off topic.




No, no it isn't. D series, B series and H-series boxes are roughly considered "bullet proof".. I know this because I race them. The S2k box is considered one the greatest 6sp manual boxes in the known universe and the only "sensitive" manual boxes were the K series and only under full race conditions. I've seen 3 CRX's, 1 accord, 1 prelude, 2 integras, NSX and a multitude of Civics to over 100k miles without so much as needing a new clutch.

If you're Honda transmission lasts less than 20k, well then I'd say the problem isn't in the transmission.



EDIT: Nothing changed, but adding clarity: Referring to B and H series boxes as "bullet proof" is a bit incredulous so I need to retrace my steps a bit, however with the right fluid they can be beaten on pretty relentlessly in full race conditions for quite some time (multiple race seasons) before needing to be refreshed. The K-Boxes are "sensitive" in that in full race mode, one good over-zealous shift will end its day but the RSX at the 25 Hours of Thunderhill finished very well without tranny problems.

Ok, apologies for derailment. I will refain from further posting in this thread but when someone said the Honda transmission can't go 20k miles I just had to chime in because that is pretty ridiculous.

I think you missed the whole point of his post.. He is not saying they are garbage, he is saying if you get on that forum, the members make it seem as if the transmission is garbage.. Kinda like the 5-6 members on here that make it seem like this engine won't see over 25k..

[regal]

Originally Posted by ayau

It doesn't sound like you fully understand the root cause of the issue. It's not from simply driving at 5200RPM+. Assuming the article below is accurate, DI failure is related to engine RPM and shifting of the gears.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...48&postcount=5

There isn't a lot of shifting in auto-x. For the most part, you're in 2nd gear. That may explain why BlaineWasHere hasn't experienced any issues. Again, this is assuming the article is accurate.

Guys this is just speculation. That South Aftrican document is just a memo from someone who found a glaring error by the JDM engineers, not a TSB. It doesn't mean that "fast shifting" is the sole issue. People that are really looking at the tune with this car have been logging detonation all over the place with the factory tune.

My "speculation" is that the issue is most likely related to the same problem all the previous high performance Subaru engines have had. The main reason an STI owner spent thousands of hours developing RomRaider: the factory tune is just poor and not tuned for the 1% "spirited" drivers. Meaning it runs lean with a lot of advance, stays in closed loop too long, and relies way too much on knock correction.

Every single one of those rentals at Nurburgring blew injector seals all four of them, they were lucky the engines did blow like many here have had. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Mazda guys aren't used to having to fix the factory tune. But Subaru owners are used to this. Meeting some of the emsission regulations with a Boxer means some sacrifice to relying on knock correction.

Heck the only guy boasting he pulled clean injectors is running a full standalone, what does that tell you ?

I think that's the take away here, get your Subaru tuned if you have a lead foot. We Toyota guys just aren't used to that but its like second nature to Subaru enthusiasts.

[Captain Insano]

This is true (I have owned three wrx / sti cars).

[@Art_Mighty]

So I'm reading this and the other two related threads in the TSB/Issues section...

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38397
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36129

(Moderators: Please delete and/or lock this thread! EVERYONE ELSE: Please post in the threads above. We're not going to get anywhere by posting the same thing in three different places!)

...now that that's out of the way...

I purchased my FR-S in Aug of 2012 and it has 19,500 miles on it. Other than a strut bar there are no modifications. At 1600 miles I lost an intake variable timing gear and the car was in the shop for 4 weeks waiting for parts.

Unlike some of the other owners in this thread I drive this car, very hard, every day. This engine only seems to produce reasonable torque between 5000rpm and redline and frankly I'm frustrated with this engine's lack of power. I spend a LOT of time at WOT and I frequently shift @ 7000-7200rpm. I have an AT and unless it's snowing the car's transmission is always in sport mode and I'm always manually shifting the car (both up-shifting and downshifting).

I bought an extended warranty with Toyota that I'm in the process of canceling before I make an investment into a FI setup. So far, so good; no DI issues. Just two points;

1) I believe those of you who are babying your cars by shifting them at 5000 rpm and never going to WOT are doing a disservice to the FT-86 community at large. Simply put; don't delay the inevitable! If it's going to break you want it to do so sooner rather then later so drive the piss out of your cars people!

2) I think this is a Manual Transmission issue. I know this shouldn't have anything to do with it but to date I have only read about MT cars being affected (if I'm wrong someone please correct me). Are the ratios on the AT keeping this exact condition from occurring? Is there a moment of "free reving" occurring with some drivers because they're still in the throttle for a fraction of a second longer when the clutch is depressed and it's backfiring when the throttle is released? Are these problems related to "power shifting"?

[ft_sjo]

Originally Posted by @Art_Mighty

I think this is a Manual Transmission issue

It probably is. Slush boxes don't tend to have the same rapid transients than manuals can. The torque converter makes life a bit easier on the engine in these scenarios.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

@BlaineWasHere - Then it's either a matter of time, or you're not shifting fast enough to cause the problem.

I'm sure if a few people who don't think they have an issue did some datalogging (for knock) they may be unpleasantly surprised.

Not saying you're wrong, but I find it hard to believe that Toyota/Subaru never noticed transient knock when examining the data logs from the ECU in testing this car during its shake-down. Would seem like a big oversight.

[regal]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Not saying you're wrong, but I find it hard to believe that Toyota/Subaru never noticed transient knock when examining the data logs from the ECU in testing this car during its shake-down. Would seem like a big oversight.

Exactly, there is more to it read this:

Toyota's development on the
D-4S system for the 2GR-FSE
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3868&stc=1&d=132605279
1

4.4 FINAL INJECTION STRATEGY ADOPTED FOR
PRODUCTION
VEHICLES
The final strategy of D-4S system for introduction to

production now will be discussed. Simultaneous injection
is utilized to
optimize combustion at lower engine
speeds. The mixture formation using 100%
DI at higher
engine speeds is sufficiently homogeneous and
combustion
efficiency is at a level comparable to
simultaneous injection due to the
piston speeds. For this
reason simultaneous injection is not required at
higher
engine speeds. Another consideration when
simultaneous injection
is utilized at higher engine
speeds, the injector-tip temperature of the DI
injector
becomes too high promoting injector deposits and
degrading the
durability of the injector. According to the
research [9], a DI injector has
issues when the injectortip
temperature reaches approximately 150°C. For
this
reason utilization of simultaneous injection is limited.
.

If it were as simple as forgetting to fill out the transient ignition table there would have been a ECU flash waiting at everyone's dealer by now.