100% DI Failure with Nurburgring rentals

[denkigrve]

Everyone should also read this post by @csg_mike

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=198

It's all of the information you need to know, and then need to understand that this failure is caused from 5200+ RPM driving and extensive usage at those levels.

The basic remedy? Get a fucking tune. Someone needs to make a cheap tune in BRZ-edit or ECU-tek that simply raises that rate to 10k instead of 5.2k. Then those that are concerned can have a simple safety net fix to stop the worry.

I'm still curious why folks that beat on their motors like @BlaineWasHere don't have this issue. He's at over 35k miles and TON of auto-x. His car should be a prime candidate. Which brings me back to the week of manufacture question. Maybe there was a parts change? Who knows. In the end there is something to fix this for those that are worried, and I can guarantee you that Toyota and Subaru are doing actual testing on this. They'd be foolish not to, but don't expect some grandiose announcement since this is still in the fractions of a percent of the total vehicle population.

[torqdork]

@suaveflooder, not all trouble codes trigger a CEL. Pending codes are considered transient and stored unless they repeat and then will trigger a trouble code and CEL. At least that's the way my UltraGauge works so just in case I'd do a baseline scan for any stored alarms that could become a CEL related to a DI issue.

http://www.ultra-gauge.com/ultragauge/

[thill]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

A Toyota/Subaru that is riddled with unreliability problems.... Now I feel like I've entered the Twilight Zone!

Goddamnit I miss Honda.

LOL, trust me my other car is a Honda and there is just as much paranoia there. You would think that every transmission Honda makes is utter garbage and will fail within 20K miles.. It is even worse there than here. But then you realize it is just a handful of people that had issues that post non-stop about it.

[thill]

Originally Posted by denkigrve

Everyone should also read this post by @csg_mike

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=197

It's all of the information you need to know, and then need to understand that this failure is caused from 5200+ RPM driving and extensive usage at those levels.

The basic remedy? Get a fucking tune. Someone needs to make a cheap tune in BRZ-edit or ECU-tek that simply raises that rate to 10k instead of 5.2k. Then those that are concerned can have a simple safety net fix to stop the worry.

I'm still curious why folks that beat on their motors like @BlaineWasHere don't have this issue. He's at over 35k miles and TON of auto-x. His car should be a prime candidate. Which brings me back to the week of manufacture question. Maybe there was a parts change? Who knows. In the end there is something to fix this for those that are worried, and I can guarantee you that Toyota and Subaru are doing actual testing on this. They'd be foolish not to, but don't expect some grandiose announcement since this is still in the fractions of a percent of the total vehicle population.

I think you linked to the wrong post?

[denkigrve]

Originally Posted by thill

I think you linked to the wrong post?

Heh, it won't link to CSG Mike's post. I'll find the original.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by denkigrve

Everyone should also read this post by @csg_mike

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=197

It's all of the information you need to know, and then need to understand that this failure is caused from 5200+ RPM driving and extensive usage at those levels.

The basic remedy? Get a fucking tune. Someone needs to make a cheap tune in BRZ-edit or ECU-tek that simply raises that rate to 10k instead of 5.2k. Then those that are concerned can have a simple safety net fix to stop the worry.

I'm still curious why folks that beat on their motors like @BlaineWasHere don't have this issue. He's at over 35k miles and TON of auto-x. His car should be a prime candidate. Which brings me back to the week of manufacture question. Maybe there was a parts change? Who knows. In the end there is something to fix this for those that are worried, and I can guarantee you that Toyota and Subaru are doing actual testing on this. They'd be foolish not to, but don't expect some grandiose announcement since this is still in the fractions of a percent of the total vehicle population.

It doesn't sound like you fully understand the root cause of the issue. It's not from simply driving at 5200RPM+. Assuming the article below is accurate, DI failure is related to engine RPM and shifting of the gears.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...48&postcount=5

There isn't a lot of shifting in auto-x. For the most part, you're in 2nd gear. That may explain why BlaineWasHere hasn't experienced any issues. Again, this is assuming the article is accurate.

[denkigrve]

Originally Posted by ayau

It doesn't sound like you fully understand the root cause of the issue. It's not from simply driving at 5200RPM+. Assuming the article below is accurate, DI failure is related to engine RPM and shifting of the gears.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...48&postcount=5

There isn't a lot of shifting in auto-x. For the most part, you're in 2nd gear. That may explain why BlaineWasHere hasn't experienced any issues. Again, this is assuming the article is accurate.

I understand that it's throttle changes at above 5200+ causing the "issue." I'm also pretty sure that being in 2nd gear at 5200+ and shifting gears is the same wear on the motor as 5200+ in any other gear. It's not like the car never shifts gears in an Auto-x especially since Blaine usually launches his car at 5k+ RPMs. It's not as much impact sure, but it's still there. So in theory it means this either is a really extreme case (NB ring is a hella long course, and lots of laps is A LOT of wear on the motor) or there was a parts supplier change on some cars that's causing an issue.

My money is on a parts supplier change or addition to keep up with demand.

[thill]

Originally Posted by ayau

It doesn't sound like you fully understand the root cause of the issue. It's not from simply driving at 5200RPM+. Assuming the article below is accurate, DI failure is related to engine RPM and shifting of the gears.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...48&postcount=5

There isn't a lot of shifting in auto-x. For the most part, you're in 2nd gear. That may explain why BlaineWasHere hasn't experienced any issues. Again, this is assuming the article is accurate.

That post/article actually makes a lot of sense...

[FRSBRZGT86FAN]

Originally Posted by suaveflooder

So, just called my dealer and talked to one of the reps I usually deal with. He has a VERY similar TSB for the car, the catch is that he says the check engine light needs to be on for them to do the upgrade. He doesn't get it either and he says it would make sense to take care of it BEFORE destroying the direct injectors, but he would have to follow the right steps and couldn't do it unless I had a code. He said if the DI was failing before the code, obviously Toyota would repair it under warranty and do the ECU upgrade, so it's not like Toyota is against us driving these cars hard. Sadly, it doesn't look like Subaru is as forgiving.

I spent a lot of time on this yesterday, reading looking at what is causing this. The lean condition is not something that I personally would ever have to worry about as autox is one shift and done. My spirited driving is up palomar which involves one shift again and leaving in second. I'm assuming that is the reason why Toyota hasn't touched it. I'm not saying it makes sense, but it is not a condition that 95% of owners will ever deal with.

A good step right now would be for people to write Toyota and state is as a concern, mention the TSB (which shows that they know it's an issue), and find out what it would take for it to just be a standard software upgrade. There will be people open tracking the car and that's when it will come into play or with those who do a lot of spirited shifting while DDing. Other than that, it really isn't going to effect most of us.

Nice job so in reality there isn't much to worry about as long as you have the warranty? Then if it the DI does fail they will simply replace all the damaged internals and add a new ecu tune to prevent it from ever happening again? I am pretty sure scion/toyota have always been forgiving of modifiers working and there cars, hell scion is built on the fact of customization, in fact most of the reps stretch the warranty to help them, I agree with the fact Subaru isn't very forgiving as well.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by FRSBRZGT86FAN

Nice job so in reality there isn't much to worry about as long as you have the warranty? Then if it the DI does fail they will simply replace all the damaged internals and add a new ecu tune to prevent it from ever happening again? I am pretty sure scion/toyota have always been forgiving of modifiers working and there cars, hell scion is built on the fact of customization, in fact most of the reps stretch the warranty to help them, I agree with the fact Subaru isn't very forgiving as well.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather not have dealer techs rip open my engine.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by suaveflooder

So, just called my dealer and talked to one of the reps I usually deal with. He has a VERY similar TSB for the car, the catch is that he says the check engine light needs to be on for them to do the upgrade. He doesn't get it either and he says it would make sense to take care of it BEFORE destroying the direct injectors, but he would have to follow the right steps and couldn't do it unless I had a code. He said if the DI was failing before the code, obviously Toyota would repair it under warranty and do the ECU upgrade, so it's not like Toyota is against us driving these cars hard. Sadly, it doesn't look like Subaru is as forgiving.

I spent a lot of time on this yesterday, reading looking at what is causing this. The lean condition is not something that I personally would ever have to worry about as autox is one shift and done. My spirited driving is up palomar which involves one shift again and leaving in second. I'm assuming that is the reason why Toyota hasn't touched it. I'm not saying it makes sense, but it is not a condition that 95% of owners will ever deal with.

A good step right now would be for people to write Toyota and state is as a concern, mention the TSB (which shows that they know it's an issue), and find out what it would take for it to just be a standard software upgrade. There will be people open tracking the car and that's when it will come into play or with those who do a lot of spirited shifting while DDing. Other than that, it really isn't going to effect most of us.

Is there a link to this similar TSB somewhere? I'm interested in reading about it.

[FRSBRZGT86FAN]

Originally Posted by ayau

I don't know about you, but I'd rather not have dealer techs rip open my engine.

I would assume they would know what they are doing and I would insist they replace all the necessary seals and gaskets, its not like they'll rip open and be like "s**t we forgot what to do next"

[SkullWorks]

Originally Posted by regal

No one I repeat no one has pulled a set off inectors without the problem.

You speak too confidently, I have pulled my DI Injectors atleast twice, I had no issues.

I also have been on and off my AEM series 2 Standalone several times.

14k miles as of this weekend (1 year exactly) and haven't seen any deterioration of the seals, but I refuse to do any track days on the factory ECM.

[Vmax911]

It appears that the detonation occurs when you get back on the throttle above 5200 RPM, when the tip-in table is diasabled.

If I go WOT to 7K, then shift and hit the throttle again at, say, 5K there is not detonation (tip-in table is enabled)

If I go WOT to 7K, then shift and hit the throttle again at, say, 5.5K (different gear ratio obviously) then detonation is possible.

If I go WOT to 6K, brain fart and let off the gas, then go WOT throttle again, ther IS possible detonation due to the change in throttle angle and the tip-in table disabled.

Is this how you guys understand it as well?