Comparison between a supercharger and a turbocharger at the same boost level

[wallace03]

FA20club's kit makes 283ish-hp with 5.3psi.... Are you just trying to justify buying a SC?

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by ptuning

A PROPERLY set-up turbo system will make more power and torque everywhere on the same engine using the same fuel. The choice on what FI system to get usually comes down to cost and a few other factors, so turbos may not be a good fit for everyone. CARB exemption is an important consideration for California residents. This is where a SC may be a better fit, for instance.

Blue - PTUNING GT3076R Turbo 6.2 psi on 93 Octane Pump Gas
Green - Stock BRZ
Red - Centri-SC (raised rev limiter with no other mods)
Pencil - Blower (Early dyno sheet converted KW to WHP and WHP to WTQ) - Will update with new info once more dyno charts are posted.

this is the teacher, makes good kits, knows what he is talking about...

Originally Posted by DJCarbine

10psi is not 10psi when they are on different turbochargers. You have to take into account FLOW at that pressure.

went to school

Originally Posted by buditjoenawan

Ah, but I disagree. 10psi IS 10psi: assuming you normalize intake air temps. It doesn't matter how the boost is made and by what, because that measurement is taken in the manifold. On the same motor, 10psi of boost measures the same restriction to airflow made with a turbocharger and a supercharger.

budi

didnt go to school (retracted on the basis of a sincere response thank you)

Originally Posted by Opposed

So 10psi on a T25 turbo is the same as 10psi on an 80mm turbo?

smart person + sarcasm

Originally Posted by DJCarbine

10psi of hot air is the same as 10psi of cold air?
I know you said "assuming you normalize intake temps" but when you normalize everything such as backpressure, compressor/turbine housing size etc..... you end up with 2 of the same turbocharger. Its the differences that make... a difference.

smart person aswell

Originally Posted by jamesm

10psi != 10psi unless they're coming from the same turbo. do we really have to go over this again?

i think you meant 10psi /= 10psi, that exclamation point is going to confuse people...

Originally Posted by wallace03

FA20club's kit makes 283ish-hp with 5.3psi.... Are you just trying to justify buying a SC?

turbo = fun in a straight line
sc = fun everywhere else





PTuning @ 6.2 psi making almost 300 whp
Vortech @ 10 psi making 250 whp

what is the difference?

the Ptuning turbo is pushing roughly one and a half times as much air (cubic feet per minute, CFPM) than the vortech even though the pressure is much less. how does this happen? read a book because i dont feel like explaining for the millionth time

[buditjoenawan]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

this is the teacher, makes good kits, knows what he is talking about...



went to school



didnt go to school



smart person + sarcasm



smart person aswell



i think you meant 10psi /= 10psi, that exclamation point is going to confuse people...



turbo = fun in a straight line
sc = fun everywhere else





PTuning @ 6.2 psi making almost 300 whp
Vortech @ 10 psi making 250 whp

what is the difference?

the Ptuning turbo is pushing roughly one and a half times as much air (cubic feet per minute, CFPM) than the vortech even though the pressure is much less. how does this happen? read a book because i dont feel like explaining for the millionth time

I didn't go to school. Interesting accusation.

Just think about what boost is actually measuring. If boost is measuring air flow, I would agree that 10psi from one turbo is different from 10psi from another. Also notice I said that if air intake temps were normalized, 10psi is 10psi. Look, I get it; it's an emotional topic and I didn't do myself any favors stirring the pot. But here goes again: boost is a measure of restriction of air going into the motor. And it is measured at the intake manifold. The difference between ptuning's 6psi vs vortech's 10psi can be explained by: different dyno. Not going to argue which dyno reads high and which reads low. Dynos are always a tool that is effective only when comparing deltas. Read a compressor map sometimes and see those efficiency islands? Between the surge and choke lines? Those correspond to pressure ratios. So yea, different turbos have different efficiency ranges at different pressure ratios. That's why I say if intake air temps are normalized since that is a huge indicator of how much power gain/loss.

Think of it another way, if you have a hole you are trying to cram a piece of dough through, the restriction of the hole overcomes how much pressure you try to push the dough with. But hey, let's pretend superchargers don't have any parasitic drag through their belt drive system, that it doesn't take 900hp to turn the supercharger on Top Fuel cars. That the low torque of the FA20 is a great fit for any belt driven superchargers.

There are numerous advantages to a supercharger, but apples to apples, a properly set up turbocharger will always be more efficient in making power. Heck, even ptuning whom you said is well schooled agrees with little ole me who didn't go to school, according to you. And on their own comparison chart, they show, on their dyno, the same phenomena I'm describing when different FI systems were compared. Interesting how I'm not schooled and they are - we are talking about the same thing....

So allow me to ask you, oh wise one, how would YOU compare the Vortech kit to a turbocharged system? Since Vortech isn't publishing their compressor map, we'll never know what it's efficiency range is. In fact, I remember a member here (Mandalay, I believe) who kept pressing for Vortech to publish specs on the supercharger unit, believing that the unit Vortech was supplying at the time doesn't flow enough to make 250whp. And you know what, he was right. And Vortech supplied an updated, larger, better flowing unit. At no cost to early adopters even, so kudos to Vortech for that.

Oh, and before you accuse me of not having gone to school: if anyone would like to ping me privately, I will gladly tell anyone what I've been involved in. I'm really glad though, that I am no longer in this industry. I had a heck of a time with misinformation back in the day and I see that things haven't changed all that much.

budi

[sw20kosh]

lol

[Sellout]

Originally Posted by buditjoenawan

I didn't go to school. Interesting accusation.

Just think about what boost is actually measuring. If boost is measuring air flow, I would agree that 10psi from one turbo is different from 10psi from another. Also notice I said that if air intake temps were normalized, 10psi is 10psi. Look, I get it; it's an emotional topic and I didn't do myself any favors stirring the pot. But here goes again: boost is a measure of restriction of air going into the motor. And it is measured at the intake manifold. The difference between ptuning's 6psi vs vortech's 10psi can be explained by: different dyno. Not going to argue which dyno reads high and which reads low. Dynos are always a tool that is effective only when comparing deltas. Read a compressor map sometimes and see those efficiency islands? Between the surge and choke lines? Those correspond to pressure ratios. So yea, different turbos have different efficiency ranges at different pressure ratios. That's why I say if intake air temps are normalized since that is a huge indicator of how much power gain/loss.

Think of it another way, if you have a hole you are trying to cram a piece of dough through, the restriction of the hole overcomes how much pressure you try to push the dough with. But hey, let's pretend superchargers don't have any parasitic drag through their belt drive system, that it doesn't take 900hp to turn the supercharger on Top Fuel cars. That the low torque of the FA20 is a great fit for any belt driven superchargers.

There are numerous advantages to a supercharger, but apples to apples, a properly set up turbocharger will always be more efficient in making power. Heck, even ptuning whom you said is well schooled agrees with little ole me who didn't go to school, according to you. And on their own comparison chart, they show, on their dyno, the same phenomena I'm describing when different FI systems were compared. Interesting how I'm not schooled and they are - we are talking about the same thing....

So allow me to ask you, oh wise one, how would YOU compare the Vortech kit to a turbocharged system? Since Vortech isn't publishing their compressor map, we'll never know what it's efficiency range is. In fact, I remember a member here (Mandalay, I believe) who kept pressing for Vortech to publish specs on the supercharger unit, believing that the unit Vortech was supplying at the time doesn't flow enough to make 250whp. And you know what, he was right. And Vortech supplied an updated, larger, better flowing unit. At no cost to early adopters even, so kudos to Vortech for that.

Oh, and before you accuse me of not having gone to school: if anyone would like to ping me privately, I will gladly tell anyone what I've been involved in. I'm really glad though, that I am no longer in this industry. I had a heck of a time with misinformation back in the day and I see that things haven't changed all that much.

budi

Boost gauges don't measure airflow. They measure pressure.

The restriction on the exhaust side matters too. That's why supercharged cars can loose boost from a header swap. The temperature of the air going into the motor isn't the only thing that changes when you swap from a T25 at 12 psi to a T3/T04E 60 trim at 12 psi and gain 100 horsepower. The difference in air temperature in this real world example(it actually happened to me) can't possibly cause that much of a gain.

[buditjoenawan]

Originally Posted by Sellout

The restriction on the exhaust side matters too. The temperature of the air going into the motor isn't the only thing that changes when you swap from a T25 at 12 psi to a T3/T04E 60 trim at 12 psi and gain 100 horsepower. The difference in air temperature in this real world example(it actually happened to me) can't possibly cause that much of a gain.

I agree completely, but since the Vortech system doesn't have a hotside, we can't compare that....

budi

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by buditjoenawan

The difference between ptuning's 6psi vs vortech's 10psi can be explained by: different dyno. Not going to argue which dyno reads high and which reads low.

budi

lol notsureifserious?

If serious, this is one serious(ly wrong) accusation and you need to do some serious homework on turbo sizing, flow and pressure.

[buditjoenawan]

Then just get all three different kind of FI systems on the same day, on the same fuel, on the same dyno. The difference will be very apparent.

[Sellout]

Originally Posted by buditjoenawan

I agree completely, but since the Vortech system doesn't have a hotside, we can't compare that....

budi

Whether you want to compare it or not, it has an effect on the power the system makes.

Since Vortech isn't publishing their compressor map, we'll never know what it's efficiency range is.

It's right here.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=245

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

i think you meant 10psi /= 10psi, that exclamation point is going to confuse people...

!= is a boolean comparison "not equal", as in 1 != 2 #=> true; 1 == 2 #=> false; 1 > 0 #=> true; !(1 > 0) #=> false

'!' is logical 'not'. '/=' is just something people do.

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by buditjoenawan

I didn't go to school. Interesting accusation.

Just think about what boost is actually measuring. If boost is measuring air flow, I would agree that 10psi from one turbo is different from 10psi from another. Also notice I said that if air intake temps were normalized, 10psi is 10psi. Look, I get it; it's an emotional topic and I didn't do myself any favors stirring the pot. But here goes again: boost is a measure of restriction of air going into the motor. And it is measured at the intake manifold. The difference between ptuning's 6psi vs vortech's 10psi can be explained by: different dyno. Not going to argue which dyno reads high and which reads low. Dynos are always a tool that is effective only when comparing deltas. Read a compressor map sometimes and see those efficiency islands? Between the surge and choke lines? Those correspond to pressure ratios. So yea, different turbos have different efficiency ranges at different pressure ratios. That's why I say if intake air temps are normalized since that is a huge indicator of how much power gain/loss.

Think of it another way, if you have a hole you are trying to cram a piece of dough through, the restriction of the hole overcomes how much pressure you try to push the dough with. But hey, let's pretend superchargers don't have any parasitic drag through their belt drive system, that it doesn't take 900hp to turn the supercharger on Top Fuel cars. That the low torque of the FA20 is a great fit for any belt driven superchargers.

There are numerous advantages to a supercharger, but apples to apples, a properly set up turbocharger will always be more efficient in making power. Heck, even ptuning whom you said is well schooled agrees with little ole me who didn't go to school, according to you. And on their own comparison chart, they show, on their dyno, the same phenomena I'm describing when different FI systems were compared. Interesting how I'm not schooled and they are - we are talking about the same thing....

So allow me to ask you, oh wise one, how would YOU compare the Vortech kit to a turbocharged system? Since Vortech isn't publishing their compressor map, we'll never know what it's efficiency range is. In fact, I remember a member here (Mandalay, I believe) who kept pressing for Vortech to publish specs on the supercharger unit, believing that the unit Vortech was supplying at the time doesn't flow enough to make 250whp. And you know what, he was right. And Vortech supplied an updated, larger, better flowing unit. At no cost to early adopters even, so kudos to Vortech for that.

Oh, and before you accuse me of not having gone to school: if anyone would like to ping me privately, I will gladly tell anyone what I've been involved in. I'm really glad though, that I am no longer in this industry. I had a heck of a time with misinformation back in the day and I see that things haven't changed all that much.

budi

i retract me statement, thank you for responding like that but im tired of people complaining about psi and how come one kit makes more power than another.

the simplest way to put it

Bernoulli's principle states that for an inviscid flow, an increase in the speed of the fluid occurs simultaneously with a decrease in pressure or a decrease in the fluid's potential energy.

when applying this in the simplest for

air pressure
flow speed

scenario: air pressure is constant with 2 turbos, if the tubing is the same with a difference only in velocity, you get 2 different power potentials

this is why some kits make much more power than others at the same PSI

soooooo

if compressor A was at 10 PSI moving 50 cfpm and compressor B was at 10 PSI but only moving 30 cfpm then you will make more power with compressor A

with 20 cfmp more you are able to maximize the combustion chambers volumetric efficiency. an engine, 2L for example, does not take in exactly 2L of air during an intake cycle because the valves do not stay open long enough during the cycle for the air pressure to equalize and with a turbo that pushes the same psi bust does it fastest will achieve a higher volumetric efficiency because well... the air moves faster into the cylinder during its limited intake time


so in conclusion: why do turbos make more power than superchargers, even at the same psi? simple, larger tubing, and the air moves faster.... simple...

[buditjoenawan]

Originally Posted by Sellout

Whether you want to compare it or not, it has an effect on the power the system makes.


It's right here.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=245

I missed that. Has Vortech confirmed that map does indeed correspond to the shipping unit?

budi

[buditjoenawan]

Originally Posted by Sellout

Whether you want to compare it or not, it has an effect on the power the system makes.

It does and it was completely my mistake for not addressing it. But to reiterate what I've said about an internal combustion motor: it's an air pump. If you introduce restrictions in the exhaust path, it'll affect efficiency just as much as if you introduce restrictions in the intake path. There was an example of going from a smaller turbo to a larger turbo at the same boost level and gaining a lot of power. I bet that if you pair the hotside of the larger turbo with the cold side of the smaller turbo, you'd see the gains - at the same boost level. So I should have specified same intake air temps AND backpressure. Completely my mistake for not addressing it, and I do apologize for the confusion.

budi

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by jamesm

!= is a boolean comparison "not equal", as in 1 != 2 #=> true; 1 == 2 #=> false; 1 > 0 #=> true; !(1 > 0) #=> false

'!' is logical 'not'. '/=' is just something people do.

i know boolean, its java right? i thought it was a mistype and i wasnt bashing you in any way or form lol

mathematical equations not preformed in computer language is what i am used to

i remember using boolean expressions in algebra 1 but that was back in the 6th grade... lol