Innovate/Spritex/Bullet... What I found searching the web.

[Draco-REX]

Originally Posted by xxscaxx

I'm going to steer this current debate OT for a second with a random thought I had earlier.

Anyone concerned with the instant torque conditions at low RPM in the winter? I know not everyone DD's this car but I do. Its something I completely overlooked and wonder if it would be a nightmare to drive this thing in the snow, lol.

I'm sure I would manage somehow, but even at stock power levels the tires seem to slip extremely easy with too much throttle.

It's not something to worrya bout unless you're going WOT all the time in the snow. Your throttlebody is before the blower. If you don't let the air in, it can't be compressed into the engine.

[Anaxilus]

A positive displacement supercharger should be much easier to calculate than any turbo rig. The prior posts make good points but I think some of you might be over thinking it in this case. I'd say around 260hp on E85 is more than logical.

The FA20 already makes 100hp/liter, that means it flows quite well. In a perfect world, w/ a PD charger you can simply take a percentage of 1bar (14.7 psi) that the stock motor operates at under NA and calculate the multiplier as a percentage of 1bar that you are adding. Assuming lack of intake restriction (Remember, the Innovate system comes w/ it's own tuned manifold).

So let's say 7.5 psi is roughly 1/2bar, this translates to adding half your NA value, thus 200hp (crank) + 100hp= 300hp total (crank). However, if the Sprintex graph is right, then it operates at 90% volumetric efficiency, so more like roughly 100 x .90= 90hp (ignoring intake charge temps for the sake of simplicity). Thus total 290hp (crank). So now let's minus roughly 10% for parasitic losses = 260hp (crank). Minus another 15% for drivetrain losses and you are at 210-220hp (wheels).

So take that 210-220 and add E85 to the equation and add maybe another 10% back, you get 230-240hp. So where's the 20hp discrepancy w/ robispec's numbers? Ah, we didn't calculate his increase in volumetric efficiency on both sides of the air pump due to improved intake and exhaust, better tuning/mapping, changed pulley/boost, reductions in frictional and rotational mass losses, all of which convert to more power. Thus finding another 20hp doesn't seem unlikely, nor would calling the dyno potentially generous be unreasonable. Either way, the numbers all look roughly in the logical ballpark to me.

This is why I consider the rated HP rating of a blower and it's max BAR to be something of a red-herring. If I know it's volumetric efficiency, and the engine's VE, the math is relatively straight forward. To me, this does not look like unicorn numbers at all.

If this were a turbo, the math is more complicated due to variable VE and intake charge temps. If the efficiency of the motor was lower, then yes I would see unicorns too. Imagine how well a PD charger would do on an S2000 at 120hp/liter. Common S2000 numbers seem to indicate an rough average of 330hp at the wheels under similar conditions. Again, this makes sense if you increase the FA20's efficiency by 20%. Could this Innovate PD charger get you there? That would be more of a concern for the S2000.

These numbers aren't 100% accurate at all, but are relatively straight forward and in the ballpark of reality. So nobody should be worried about making only 180hp or hope for 600hp at the wheels w/ this kit.

[Carwhisperer]

Boom.

[swift996]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

These numbers aren't 100% accurate at all, but are relatively straight forward and in the ballpark of reality. So nobody should be worried about making only 180hp or hope for 600hp at the wheels w/ this kit.

I'm thinking very close to the ballpark given what we have seen.

I don't understand the volume efficiency map. How would running say 10 or 12 psi plug into that calculation? (Assuming you can match the A/F) I guess the better question might be at what boost level is the blower maxed out at? (in theory)

[Adeets]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

put on your flame suit.

I think you forget what E85 did on the vortech kit... 245 whp on pump -------> to 365 whp E85 no knock.

245 was with an ok tune, and before that a different blower, 263/265 8.5 psi with stock fuel system being the thing that's stopping it going further, that's on 92 WAWA gas.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by Adeets

245 was with an ok tune, and before that a different blower, 263/265 8.5 psi with stock fuel system being the thing that's stopping it going further, that's on 92 WAWA gas.

...

My point is E85 allows for a ton more timing and more boost.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by Adeets

245 was with an ok tune, and before that a different blower, 263/265 8.5 psi with stock fuel system being the thing that's stopping it going further, that's on 92 WAWA gas.

I know someone personally who is at ~250-260 whp on the vortech and it is not just the stock fuel system holding him back...it is detonation. ECU pulls timing after one pull on the dyno. He has to run higher octane on the road courses here in the summer heat or else the ecu just pulls timing.

Am I surprised? No. I would expect the same with my innovate kit if I had a 9 psi pulley on 91 octane. This is why I am running water/meth and filling up with 2-3 gals of 100 octane at the track to keep everything working nice and smooth/cool and to create insurance.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by robispec

ok today at the track (WSIR big track) 100 degree ambiant temps
I ran a 1:34.7xx CSG Mike hopped into Dlckers car and poped off a 1:38.5
Yo from 86factory landed a 1:39.5
Everyone else in the 1:40's
Who CARES WHAT THE DYNO SAYS!
LAP TIMES SAY IT WORKS FANTASTIC!
(DELTA for this kit to NA was minimum FOUR SECONDS Even CSG Mike liked it! lol)

Radiator/oil cooler combo work just as expected
Both boosted Innovate cars ran sub 200 H20 and sub 230 oil temps!
(I ran mine with the AC on to simulate what a Front mount inter cooler would add to the system ) and because it was HOT out there ;-).

I approve of this message.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by robispec

Best feeling event of the day
I got behind a s2k coming through 9 and was able to pull alongside and pass him going down the straight as he saw my nose he glanced over and shifted and kept in the throttle. When I got even, driver to drive,r and was pulling him in a straight line he did this massive double take...lol

Oh there were plenty of double takes when I was driving...

[norsamerican]

was MIA for like 3 weeks from the forum come back to find kit still not released! LOL im going turbo. screw this.

[Adeets]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

I know someone personally who is at ~250-260 whp on the vortech and it is not just the stock fuel system holding him back...it is detonation. ECU pulls timing after one pull on the dyno. He has to run higher octane on the road courses here in the summer heat or else the ecu just pulls timing.

Am I surprised? No. I would expect the same with my innovate kit if I had a 9 psi pulley on 91 octane. This is why I am running water/meth and filling up with 2-3 gals of 100 octane at the track to keep everything working nice and smooth/cool and to create insurance.

I'm at 263~ dynojet with no knock on any of my 12 pulls at that power level (32 total pulls all no knock, 92 WAWA gas.) I guess it was in the 70's temperature wise and sprinkling humidity wise. We stopped because I was going bigger injectors/fuel pump the following week, with the new injectors I feel the dip (should call it a canyon) at 6600 is gone, but we haven't dyno tuned it yet, so don't know what the new gains are. TBC. (The dyno I'm talking about is located in the vortech moto-east thread.)

Oh and I don't need to know second hand about something some guys car did, this is my car.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by Adeets

Oh and I don't need to know second hand about something some guys car did, this is my car.

Although very impressive...no one is talking about your car here... What are you trying to say cause it is lost on me. The car used as an example is skatery's car which made a whole lot of power on e85 and more boost.

No offense.

[Accurate Race Shop]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

Although very impressive...no one is talking about your car here... What are you trying to say cause it is lost on me. The car used as an example is skatery's car which made a whole lot of power on e85 and more boost.

No offense.

I'll have the kit in Michigan with 93 octane. Some gas stations there sell 91 and 93 octane. do you think it would be a noticeable difference between the two. E85 is plentiful in Michigan so I plan on running that eventually but I will probably leave it on pump gas for a bit just wondering if I should put 93 in it or go with the kit recommended 91.

[OrbitalEllipses]

93....