Innovate/Spritex/Bullet... What I found searching the web.

[buditjoenawan]

Originally Posted by industrial

How do you measure the HP just the supercharger makes? All cars will make the same power with the same PSI from this supercharger?

Are you kidding me?

Yep, if you put this supercharger on a C6 Z06 which makes 460whp NA, you WILL only see 270whp with the supercharger installed. BECAUSE the motor is simply an air pump and the small volume of supercharger air flow is LESS than the 7.0L of V8. I am not kidding, this is the simple physics of internal combustion motors.

budi

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by buditjoenawan

Budi is my real name. I have nothing really to hide. I'm not saying that anything is incorrect. But, BUT, if the supercharger unit is the same 300hp@1bar unit that I linked to, it's amazing that the car makes that much power with that little boost.

budi

It is the same phenomenon as:

A. 9:1 CR 2.0L 26psi =400 hp
B. 12.5:1 CR 2.0L 14 psi = 400 hp

Going back to the supercharger in question... not every engine processes the airflow of the supercharger the same. One engine can be hyper efficient at producing power with the same air flow. Upping the CR is increasing the efficiency of the motor.

The 300 hp rating they give that unit is a bit misleading because it does not account for the efficiency of the motor it is being installed on.

[buditjoenawan]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

It is the same phenomenon as:

A. 9:1 CR 2.0L 26psi =400 hp
B. 12.5:1 CR 2.0L 14 psi = 400 hp

I agree if boost is all equal. But only providing the forced induction unit can SUPPLY the air flow for 400hp.


budi

[robispec]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

Hmmm..... so nobody has noticed this little nugget of information:


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=129

you believe everything you read on the internet?

lol note I qualified with the 75mm pulley....

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by robispec

you believe everything you read on the internet?

lol note I qualified with the 75mm pulley....

Let me know if I shouldn't believe you

[buditjoenawan]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

It is the same phenomenon as:

A. 9:1 CR 2.0L 26psi =400 hp
B. 12.5:1 CR 2.0L 14 psi = 400 hp

Going back to the supercharger in question... not every engine processes the airflow of the supercharger the same. One engine can be hyper efficient at producing power with the same air flow. Upping the CR is increasing the efficiency of the motor.

The 300 hp rating they give that unit is a bit misleading because it does not account for the efficiency of the motor it is being installed on.

So let's agree on the basics: an internal combustion motor is basically an air pump. If you push more air in the front, the more will be flowing in the rear. If you restrict the amount of air in the front, efficiency will go down.

So if you put a supercharger or turbocharger in front of the air pump that LIMITS the amount of air the pump and ingest, then the pump can only do as much work as the amount of air the supercharger or turbocharger can provide.

You CAN go slightly beyond the supercharger/turbocharger rating by running super cool fuel, like e85. But NOT 100% over. There just isn't that kind of headroom in fuel and the cooling properties and knock resistance properties it conveys.

Going back to that compression ratio example you give: if both motors have a 10lb/min turbocharger installed on it, then the BEST case is that you get 100hp. It doesn't matter what size or compression ratio or kind or anything else motor it may be. BECAUSE you are *limiting* the amount of air it ingests.

budi

[Subzero]

Has anyone played with the cam advance on this blower setup?

[robispec]

oh and tq at 2000 was the same as PEAK tq from the stock car on my before and after dynographs...
I'm saying 7 psi because thats what they list the 75mm pulley puts out I have no boost gauge on the car...and know Idea what the current intake temps or boost is.
We had this prob over on the evo forums too..
NO dynograph should count without
Atmospheric "tower" readings shown
SAE correction values shown
Boost pressure trace ON THE GRAPH
A/F Trace ON THE GRAPH
TQ trace ON THE GRAPH
and finally WHP ON THE GRAPH

imo ANYTHING ELSE doesn't pass the smell test
and like Sportsguy I want a STOCK Baseline on the same dyno same "tower" conditions....ON THE GRAPH...
ANYTHING ELSE IS SMOKE AND MIRRORS
By the way on a completely different topic with the returnless fuel system how are all you big boost guys compensating the fuel delivery? usually there is a manifold pressure diaphram but on this fuel system the fuel pressure control is in the tank and PRE-SET...for the NA car...

[SkullWorks]

@robispec to much foreshadowing...you are making me tired already, extra redbull


As far as the MANIFOLD PRESSURE vs FLOW issue that is kind of taking place on this page today, there are 2 variables no one has brought up yet that are very important.

First, the boost a car sees (MANIFOLD PRESSURE) is a measurement of restriction to flow created by the intake runners/valves/head/cylinder capacity....not just cylinder capacity. my sr20VET and DET make vastly different HP at the same boost level, because there is less restriction in the runners/valves/heads the motor see's less "boost" but is getting the same MASS of air...that's what counts.


second...Direct injection and E85 both contribute significantly to the charge cooling happening in the runner...wait...i mean combustion chamber...that's where it gets silly, you can actually inject enough E85 directly into the cylinder to lower the pressure in the cylinder decreasing boost or in the case of an NA motor actually generating greater than 100% VE (volumetric efficiency)...which is astounding.


TLDR; Boost is a lie, boost doesn't mean more airflow and the better the NA motor is when you put the boost to it the more power you will make per PSI, MASS flow is what matters, (usually given in CFM or lb/min)

[xxscaxx]

I'm going to steer this current debate OT for a second with a random thought I had earlier.

Anyone concerned with the instant torque conditions at low RPM in the winter? I know not everyone DD's this car but I do. Its something I completely overlooked and wonder if it would be a nightmare to drive this thing in the snow, lol.

I'm sure I would manage somehow, but even at stock power levels the tires seem to slip extremely easy with too much throttle.

[buditjoenawan]

Originally Posted by SkullWorks

@robispec to much foreshadowing...you are making me tired already, extra redbull


As far as the MANIFOLD PRESSURE vs FLOW issue that is kind of taking place on this page today, there are 2 variables no one has brought up yet that are very important.

First, the boost a car sees (MANIFOLD PRESSURE) is a measurement of restriction to flow created by the intake runners/valves/head/cylinder capacity....not just cylinder capacity. my sr20VET and DET make vastly different HP at the same boost level, because there is less restriction in the runners/valves/heads the motor see's less "boost" but is getting the same MASS of air...that's what counts.


second...Direct injection and E85 both contribute significantly to the charge cooling happening in the runner...wait...i mean combustion chamber...that's where it gets silly, you can actually inject enough E85 directly into the cylinder to lower the pressure in the cylinder decreasing boost or in the case of an NA motor actually generating greater than 100% VE (volumetric efficiency)...which is astounding.


TLDR; Boost is a lie, boost doesn't mean more airflow and the better the NA motor is when you put the boost to it the more power you will make per PSI, MASS flow is what matters, (usually given in CFM or lb/min)

You are right, and also thank you for backing me up. If flow is the only metric that matters, then if the super/turbocharger is limited to only supplying a certain amount of air flow, then the motor is restricted to how much air it can ingest.

If anyone do not believe me, stick a 10lb/min turbocharger like a GT12 or GT15 onto the FA20, and see if it can make more than stock power levels...

budi

[SubieNate]

Originally Posted by xxscaxx

I'm going to steer this current debate OT for a second with a random thought I had earlier.

Anyone concerned with the instant torque conditions at low RPM in the winter? I know not everyone DD's this car but I do. Its something I completely overlooked and wonder if it would be a nightmare to drive this thing in the snow, lol.

I'm sure I would manage somehow, but even at stock power levels the tires seem to slip extremely easy with too much throttle.

You could potentially recalibrate the throttle curves to make things easier. I'm sure that's something you could put on a switch using most aftermarket tuning solutions as well.

On the current debate, there is an ~7% inherent increase in chemical potential energy switching to e85 when the stoichiometric ratios and specific energies of the fuel are taken into account. That, added to the charge cooling effects, added to the efficiency boost of direct injection, added to the relatively well flowing design of this engine all conspire to get more power out of the same components than some other engines might. The same supercharger (or turbo) on a 1960's Chevy small block will not make the same power as it would on a brand new LS7. Why? Because the system downstream of the forced induction device is much, much less efficient.

The 300 hp rating as posted by Sprintex is simply a ballpark number they throw out to make picking a charger easy for non-technical people. There is no way they can simply state 300 hp as the limit for one component in such a complex system. Actual power output is totally dependent on the net efficiency of the system and how much air/fuel it can combine and combust. We've already seen the huge differences in power capability that e85 affords on the turbo setup. Remember, flow may not be the limiting factor.

Cheers
Nathan

[Draco-REX]

Originally Posted by SkullWorks

@robispec to much foreshadowing...you are making me tired already, extra redbull


As far as the MANIFOLD PRESSURE vs FLOW issue that is kind of taking place on this page today, there are 2 variables no one has brought up yet that are very important.

First, the boost a car sees (MANIFOLD PRESSURE) is a measurement of restriction to flow created by the intake runners/valves/head/cylinder capacity....not just cylinder capacity. my sr20VET and DET make vastly different HP at the same boost level, because there is less restriction in the runners/valves/heads the motor see's less "boost" but is getting the same MASS of air...that's what counts.


second...Direct injection and E85 both contribute significantly to the charge cooling happening in the runner...wait...i mean combustion chamber...that's where it gets silly, you can actually inject enough E85 directly into the cylinder to lower the pressure in the cylinder decreasing boost or in the case of an NA motor actually generating greater than 100% VE (volumetric efficiency)...which is astounding.


TLDR; Boost is a lie, boost doesn't mean more airflow and the better the NA motor is when you put the boost to it the more power you will make per PSI, MASS flow is what matters, (usually given in CFM or lb/min)

DING DING DING!! We have a winnar!

Boost is meaningless. Fuel doesn't combine with boost, it combines with air. What matters is how much AIR is geting pushed into the cylinders, not what pressure it's at (on the way in).

Now, granted, you can use boost to judge the amount of air, but only on the SAME engine. Cramming 1L of air into a .5L bottle will get you 1 bar of "boost" (roughly), but cramming that same amount of air into a 1L bottle means 0 bar. Yet when ignited, it has the same energy potential. And this isn't taking into account compression, timing, VE, etc.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by xxscaxx

Anyone concerned with the instant torque conditions at low RPM in the winter? I know not everyone DD's this car but I do. Its something I completely overlooked and wonder if it would be a nightmare to drive this thing in the snow, lol.

Keep in mind Robi's 2000 rpm torque is significantly different than mine on 91 piss octane. It ramps up slower on 91 so personally I do not think it will be a problem. For the snow, better stay under 3000 rpms though cause that's where sh*t gets crazy.