Intercooler routing layout and length

[ptuning]

Having perused through several different threads mentioning our name, I thought I'd chime in with a new topic about intercooler pipe routing. We had posted a thread with a poll a few months back regarding modifying or removing the front crash beam on the FR-S/BRZ to accommodate a top entry intercooler similar to the many of the new turbo kits that are popping up each day. This type of layout is no different from the layout we created for our Time Attack tC back in 05-06.

The overwhelming response to the thread poll was that most owners felt more comfortable with not modifying or removing the front bumper beam on their street cars. Now, we're seeing comments popping up everywhere about how our intercooler piping routing is too long. Having built and/or tuned over 1000+ turbo cars since we've been in business, I can tell you from solid experience that we know what works and what doesn't. Intercooler piping length, while somewhat important for transient boost response, is not the be all end all of turbo system design. Having an efficient intercooler path with few kinks and no tight radius bends are just as important. Even with this said, I can assure you than we are NOT down on transient boost response compared to kits with shorter intercooler piping. What we add in intercooler piping length, we MORE than make up for in superior hotside efficiency.

Furthermore, PTUNING, Full Blown, P&L, AVO, all have enough experience in turbo system design to make a top entry intercooler. As a matter of fact, this would have made all of our jobs easier. We all opted for the much more difficult path of designing a turbo system that keeps the factory front bar in place and unmodified. Why, because this is what the vast majority of the community wanted.

I write this, because some of the newer members of the forum may not be putting 2 and 2 together and realizing this. You can't have your cake and eat it too. There are only so many ways to route intercooler piping on this vehicle. Take it for what's it's worth, but just make sure you understand why very well known turbo system manufacturers do what they do when putting together a turbo system. Also, you get what you pay for, but it's in the finer details. For instance, you can't compare a turbo system with a $1,500 turbocharger to one that uses a $500 turbocharger.

- Toan

[King Tut]

Fair enough post. I think you made the correct desicison when you designed your kit. With your turbo mounting location long piping was going to be required regardless, so making the bends smoother and not sacrificing the bumper beam was a great design. I don't think anyone would argue that your kit is the best rear low mounted turbo option at this point.

The only other option is really the AVO which has a very different customer in mind with its smaller sized turbo and lower entry price.

[ptuning]

Originally Posted by King Tut

Fair enough post. I think you made the correct desicison when you designed your kit. With your turbo mounting location long piping was going to be required regardless, so making the bends smoother and not sacrificing the bumper beam was a great design. I don't think anyone would argue that your kit is the best rear low mounted turbo option at this point.

The only other option is really the AVO which has a very different customer in mind with its smaller sized turbo and lower entry price.

Well said and I totally agree with your post. No one system is right for everybody and it's great to see so many options for this platform. The choice will ultimately come down to budget.

- Toan

[wbsrazzle]

I think that the top mounted turbo systems while they look good under the hood are in fact the wrong way to implement. If you look at most of the manufacturers when designing turbo systems on vehicle, the turbo system is not a top/front mount. They do this for a variety of reasons. Who cares how long the actual piping is if the turbo system is safe, reliable and engineered correctly. Much rather have a stealth turbo that is reliable, safe than a huge snail on the front of the engine that will burn the radiator hoses and cause a lot of issues down the road.

[jamesm]

i like the design of the kit. the details are beautiful. the only thing i don't like is the turbo position lol but that's a personal preference thing. i think you'll find plenty of takers. you're definitely on the higher end in terms of quality and price, but some people love that.

there's definitely no way to put the turbo where you did without a lot of tube involved. it's all upsides and downsides, just like anything else.

[diss7]

I like the design of the Ptuning kit also. I stewed long and hard over it.

It has so many positives.

Big power, track only, I would've gone with it. But I wanted as much transient response as possible. I only hope I can manage the heat that a front mounted turbo brings, and not kick myself for not getting the Ptuning kit

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by wbsrazzle

I think that the top mounted turbo systems while they look good under the hood are in fact the wrong way to implement. If you look at most of the manufacturers when designing turbo systems on vehicle, the turbo system is not a top/front mount. They do this for a variety of reasons. Who cares how long the actual piping is if the turbo system is safe, reliable and engineered correctly. Much rather have a stealth turbo that is reliable, safe than a huge snail on the front of the engine that will burn the radiator hoses and cause a lot of issues down the road.

How many manufacturers have a turbo 4 cylinder boxer motor mounted in the front of the car? Exactly one. That company choose to mount it off an upipe on the back corner of the motor. I wouldn't exactly call it a low mount, and it definitely isn't stealthy. They utilize a top mount intercooler making the piping very short as well. I haven't heard of anyone burning a radiator hose with a top/front mounted turbo setup. The only issue created is a clearance issue with the fans. Some shops have positioned the turbo to clear both OEM fans, some shops have positioned it to clear one of the OEM fans, and some shops have decided to include slim fans.

[cdrazic93]

the main reason PTuning is still my favorite turbo kit is due to the heat soaking in mind. While the piping (thus the transient response) may be longer than other kits (barely), its still manageable with a good tuner. I dont even know if you need a upgraded radiator with the PTuning kit, probably just a oil cooler, a plus is that the time attack red piping is sexy the only thing i dont like...

The price

Curious to know if i should just run a no cat exhaust, or run the risk of having to repair the turbo after a cat decides to shoot debris into the turbo.

Maybe @Drift-Office can enlighten me on the cat vs no cat options in WA lol

[ZionsWrath]

Originally Posted by ptuning

Well said and I totally agree with your post. No one system is right for everybody and it's great to see so many options for this platform. The choice will ultimately come down to budget.

- Toan

That sounds like a bad generalization. I bought a BRZ when I could have easily afforded a much more powerful "faster" Mustang GT [or other higher horsepower car]. Budget is not the only consideration when adding power. Why doesn't someone like @CSG Mike have a 500hp turbo?

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by cdrazic93

the main reason PTuning is still my favorite turbo kit is due to the heat soaking in mind. While the piping (thus the transient response) may be longer than other kits (barely), its still manageable with a good tuner. I dont even know if you need a upgraded radiator with the PTuning kit, probably just a oil cooler, a plus is that the time attack red piping is sexy the only thing i dont like...

The price

Curious to know if i should just run a no cat exhaust, or run the risk of having to repair the turbo after a cat decides to shoot debris into the turbo.

Maybe @Drift-Office can enlighten me on the cat vs no cat options in WA lol

I wouldn't run the PTuning kit without a non catted header. I really wish their kit came with a header instead of it being a future option.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by King Tut

How many manufacturers have a turbo 4 cylinder boxer motor mounted in the front of the car? Exactly one. That company choose to mount it off an upipe on the back corner of the motor. I wouldn't exactly call it a low mount, and it definitely isn't stealthy. They utilize a top mount intercooler making the piping very short as well. I haven't heard of anyone burning a radiator hose with a top/front mounted turbo setup. The only issue created is a clearance issue with the fans. Some shops have positioned the turbo to clear both OEM fans, some shops have positioned it to clear one of the OEM fans, and some shops have decided to include slim fans.

I think the poster put it a bit too simply. The issue isn't "burning" hoses per se, but the rubber hoses in a turbo engine bay simply harden and crack over time - at a rate far exceeding N/A engines and this is due to the heat from the turbocharger. I don't want to get into a pissing match over this, but frankly there's no way to deny it happens. To what extent can be argued, but hoses in a turbo engine bay where the hoses are exposed to heat (even if the turbo has a heat shield) will age quicker, period.

Originally Posted by King Tut

I wouldn't run the PTuning kit without a non catted header. I really wish their kit came with a header instead of it being a future option.

Wazzamatta? Y u no like FOD?

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by King Tut

I wouldn't run the PTuning kit without a non catted header. I really wish their kit came with a header instead of it being a future option.

Hmm I see a high flo cat in my future...damn those are expensive too.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

I think the poster put it a bit too simply. The issue isn't "burning" hoses per se, but the rubber hoses in a turbo engine bay simply harden and crack over time - at a rate far exceeding N/A engines and this is due to the heat from the turbocharger. I don't want to get into a pissing match over this, but frankly there's no way to deny it happens. To what extent can be argued, but hoses in a turbo engine bay where the hoses are exposed to heat (even if the turbo has a heat shield) will age quicker, period.

I wouldn't say the turbo/downpipe is overly close to either of the radiator hoses, but you might as well install some nice upgraded radiator hoses from Full Blown or Perrin then at the same time. A cheap upgrade, not a reason to not use a top/front mounted turbo.

[Hawaiian]

Originally Posted by cdrazic93

Hmm I see a high flo cat in my future...damn those are expensive too.

You want a non catted header. There have been a few instances where the cat broke loose and smashed into the turbo.