Why doesn't traction/stability control actually turn off?

[Ganthrithor]

Hey duders,

I was driving my car in a spirited manner today and noticed that-- despite having held down the stability control off button and gotten the two amber lights on the cluster-- the traction control system engaged a couple of times while trying to slide around some slightly bumpy, vertical hairpins. This is not the first time the system has intervened (while "off") on vertical corners or where there are significant undulations in the road surface.

What's this about? Do I need to do the bloody pedal dance to prevent this? Why does the VSC system tolerate all kinds of retarded shenanigans on flat surfaces / dirt, but freak out the moment there's a bump in a corner?

This is kind of frustrating...

[DeepHunta]

Are you sure? I have not had this problem. When I hold it down for more than 10 seconds, all traction is off. That's why I almost crashed one misty night. If I had sport mode on and VSC off combo then maybe I would've been safe.

Make sure both amber lights are on. This will designate traction and VSC are completely off. If it is off, spinning tires and sliding will be infinite.

[Gunman]

From what I've read, the bumps are telling the computer you have wheel hop, so VSC steps in, even though you *think* you have it completely off.

[campy]

I read that it has to do with Toyota covering their asses so less people will be wrapping their cars around trees. I don't know all the laws in all counties, but it wouldn't surprise me if somewhere, there is a "cars must always have some sort of traction control" law. There's the pedal dance if you want all assists off.

[fatoni]

i think theres a way if you just google pedal dance or some jazz like that

[The359]

The Trac Off light does not mean that the system is literally shut off. It will continue to attempt to save your butt if you get the car extremely out of control, but for the most part will not intervene unless youre being reckless.

This is unfortunately the standard on most new cars nowadays, turning the traction control "off" does not completely disengage the system. Its the auto manufacturers trying to protect themselves from lawsuits. Only the more extreme stuff allows for a complete off traction control system, such as a GT-R or AMG Black Series.

The only way to fully disengage the traction control on an 86 is to disable the ABS, as the two are interconnected. This can be done with the "foot dance" every time you start the car, putting the car into a diagnostics mode that disables ABS, or simply pulling the fuse for the ABS from under the hood. Of course, you now have no ABS system, so doing these methods can be to your disadvantage performance-wise.

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by The359

The only way to fully disengage the traction control on an 86 is to disable the ABS, as the two are interconnected. This can be done with the "foot dance" every time you start the car, putting the car into a diagnostics mode that disables ABS, or simply pulling the fuse for the ABS from under the hood. Of course, you now have no ABS system, so doing these methods can be to your disadvantage performance-wise.

Huh, I thought I remembered reading that the pedal dance disabled everything *but* ABS, and that people were still encountering "ice-mode" ABS nonsense on the track while in the diagnostic mode.

If what you're saying is true then this is a major disappointment, since having ABS was one of the reasons I opted for a BRZ over an old, cable-throttle 911.

How sad. I guess the good news is that it only happens rarely. The bad news is that it always seems to happen just when I find an appropriate corner (one that will destabilize the car and that I can see through properly)... guess I'll have to plan on being less immature than I'd like to be

The funny thing about having omnipresent VSC is that this car is so easy to drive, lol. I'm waiting for a rainy day because the car has so much grip its hard to get it really sliding around in the dry, and when it does slide its so controllable...

Originally Posted by Gunman

From what I've read, the bumps are telling the computer you have wheel hop, so VSC steps in, even though you *think* you have it completely off.

This sounds highly plausible based on my experiences. I've been able to get the car super sideways on flat surfaces just fine, but when I hit bumps in uphill corners and the back end "bounces" even a tiny bit, I get the stability control light flashing at me whether I'm sliding around or not. Isn't wheel hop something that happens to high-torque drag cars? Pretty funny that the computer thinks this can happen on a BRZ :P

[nzer]

@lazyluka I'm sure you can contribute here!

[The359]

Good demonstration of the 86's VSC Modes in the wet (note that the handbrake is being pulled to kick the rear end out)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8qggahGNH0"]Toyota 86 Traction Control Demonstration [SKIDPAD] - YouTube[/ame]

[The359]

Upon further review, here is a thread on the pedal dance, it appears to be an update on the last one I read when this was first discovered:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25494

It seems that the diagnostics mode does not disable ABS, but it does affect the braking electronics in some ways.

[s0sl0w]

Originally Posted by The359

Upon further review, here is a thread on the pedal dance, it appears to be an update on the last one I read when this was first discovered:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25494

It seems that the diagnostics mode does not disable ABS, but it does affect the braking electronics in some ways.

It disables EBD (brake force distribution, which meters the braking power when you're braking but turning, to keep the car stable)

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by campy

I read that it has to do with Toyota covering their asses so less people will be wrapping their cars around trees. I don't know all the laws in all counties, but it wouldn't surprise me if somewhere, there is a "cars must always have some sort of traction control" law. There's the pedal dance if you want all assists off.

There is no such law, at least in the US. From 2012 forward all cars are required to come with stability control but it is perfectly legal to be able to shut it 100% off.

Are people 100% certain that the VSC cannot be turned off entirely? Consider me skeptical.

[hushypushy]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Are people 100% certain that the VSC cannot be turned off entirely? Consider me skeptical.

100% certain. Go drive the car hard enough, your skepticism will (unfortunately) be erased.

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

This sounds highly plausible based on my experiences. I've been able to get the car super sideways on flat surfaces just fine, but when I hit bumps in uphill corners and the back end "bounces" even a tiny bit, I get the stability control light flashing at me whether I'm sliding around or not.

This is EXACTLY my experience.

My car is completely stock. I've autocrossed it and gotten it way sideways...no problems at all. However, when driving swiftly through very bumpy turns, I've seen the flashing VSC light in the cluster more than once.

Kind of a bummer

[Rayme]

Probably try to prevent a rollover.