Final CAI decision! - About to buy, need last suggestions/opinions

[forzajuve]

Placing an Inlet Tube order tonight, not sure what to go with. This will follow up with a CAI, so it comes down to which manufacturer produces the most worthwhile product (Inlet Tube+CAI), that bar none outperforms stock. It keeps coming up in threads that some Inlet tubes and/or CAI's are just an "accessory" i.e. jewelry for the car and holds no other value.

Many would expect that upgrading your Inlet/CAI will attain noticeable, increased performance! So if I have it right (could be totally wrong), it depends on where you are located for an inlet/CAI to perform well + quality of the products.

I live in California and the city I live in is 86 ft above sea level with 60-75 degree weather. Which of these will give me guaranteed performance and why? Does location really make a difference?

It is between (didn't add CAI pics as to not BLOW up the page):

Perrin:


Zeta:


AVO:


Thanks

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by forzajuve

Many would expect that upgrading your Inlet/CAI will attain noticeable, increased performance! So if I have it right (could be totally wrong), it depends on where you are located for an inlet/CAI to perform well + quality of the products.

You'd be correct, but you're making a massive assumption that the stock setup is crap...... it's not. Have you seen the stock setup? The air is fed from the same place as on all the true CAIs (Perrin/VMS/FA20Club). The engine certainly is not being strangled on the stock setup, especially if you buy an aftermarket drop in filter. Therefore, if the car isn't needing any more air, how will fitting a bigger filter make the car breath any better? The way an intake makes power on it's own is to change the MAF sensor readings and fool the ECU to run differently, not by being "better".

If you want the "best" hp.... buy an Injen. It's fools the MAF enough to make it run leaner and will show the most gain. It also sounds great. Until you start building a big hp NA engine, get a filter, maybe get an intake pipe (I did both - see my sig).... unless you just really fancy throwing money away in which case buy a full intake. I've yet to see a full intake which has made me think about replacing my setup, the extra money is not worth the effort.

You're going to get a bunch of subjective responses, which of course mine is too.

[forzajuve]

you're making a massive assumption that the stock setup is crap

I never said the stock set up was crap. I understand stock is great that is why I want to know if an upgrade between these 3 is worth it. I am taking the position of, if I upgrade what is the optimum upgrade and it must be better than stock. Otherwise, no use in upgrading.

how will fitting a bigger filter make the car breath any better?

It is not necessarily focusing on just the filter, as I understand it. I agree the filter is important. First, the diameter of the AVO and Perrin inlet tubes are 76mm vs. the 69mm on the stock. Thus a greater diameter resulting in more air flow, but I am not sure HOW much more and if there is a huge change or not. Also, the inlet tubes are made out of silicone. Oddly enough it looks you seem to have an AVO, did you not realize that?

The way an intake makes power on it's own is to change the MAF sensor readings and fool the ECU to run differently, not by being "better"

Sure that is a part of it yet you are not considering other factors.
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Thanks for the suggestions!

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by forzajuve

I am taking the position of, if I upgrade what is the optimum upgrade and it must be better than stock. Otherwise, no use in upgrading.

Of the 3 intake pipes you posted, I would put it down to personal preference. I'd suggest that none were noticably better than the other. Do you want to keep the noise generator pipe for example?

Originally Posted by forzajuve

First, the diameter of the AVO and Perrin inlet tubes are 76mm vs. the 69mm on the stock. Thus a greater diameter resulting in more air flow, but I am not sure HOW much more and if there is a huge change or not. Also, the inlet tubes are made out of silicone. Oddly enough it looks you seem to have an AVO, did you not realize that?

Well seeing as the opening of the stock snorkel is 60mm and isn't a restriction then the stock pipe is not a restriction. Yes, I chose the AVO pipe as I wanted a silicone pipe that kept the noise generator and as it's "oversized" then it's not narrowing at the bend which may cause pressure changes. The Zeta is also "oversized" at 73mm I believe. Again, neither flows more air as such. Also, silicon is a better insulator than rubber so I guess IATs may be a touch better.

Originally Posted by forzajuve

Sure that is a part of it yet you are not considering other factors.

So what other factors have I not considered? If you consider that the engine is sucking in air and has a set capacity, if the OEM setup is not restrictive even in tuned form then how can a bigger/free'r flowing filter pipe make a difference? The MAF sensor does not read the air flowing through the pipe, it takes a tiny reading over the area of the sensor and correlates this to a predetermined config in the ECU setup for the stock intake. Changing anything infront or behind of the sensor (including a filter) will change the way air flows over it. That's why you see changes in performance on a stock car with a change in intake. Look at where the MAF location is on the Injen for example and what happens to the pipe.

There is an easy way to test what you want but it's never going to happen. Get a bunch of ECU tuned cars with completely stock parts bar the intake and see which makes the most power, same dyno, same day. I'd put money on it that full intake makes no more power than the stock. Even FA20 and JV are saying that you're better off by using stock with panel filter. My tuner also said that an intake was a waste as I was getting the car tuned. It's been well proven that a panel filter will see you similar gains to an intake at 1/10 of the price.

If you're getting a tune at some point, just get a filter and save the money. You never know, maybe a truely amazing intake may surface eventually and you wont have spent loads of $$$ on an intake that is just bling. If not, then max gains are likely to be the Injen on a stock car.

[forzajuve]

Hmm ok... in that case what do I do about ECU tuning the car since that seems to be where the real changes can be made? If I do modest upgrades (basically no super charger or turbo) what can I gain out of a ECU tune and which one?

[Kodename47]

Have a look at the Dyno Day that I organised over here in the UK. My results as well as plenty of stock, a HKS filter test, just cat-back, tune & exhaust. As always, don't look at the top/peak figures but the generic graph shape.

*EDIT*
Here's my graphs - my ECUtek map setup has an ECO map, which is the OEM map for full throttle, and a tuned map.
Below are the torque and BHP at the hubs for both, the lower runs were the OEM with my intake, the higher is the tuned runs:

[jwjknorr]

Our stock intakes are decent. Stock there is little gain to be had. I have a aem, and the throttle response is noticeable,and top end is noticeable no loss at all but no gain either in lower power band. With that said, nothing beats the sound of a good intake setup. You will see slightly better gains through out the power band with other mods added to a intake , and a tune. A tune can help get everything out of out intakes. I hear out stock intakes may become restrictive in the 200 hp range, but i dont know if this is proven or not. Its defiantly worth it. You will feel some power.

[mad_sb]

Originally Posted by Kodename47

... The way an intake makes power on it's own is to change the MAF sensor readings and fool the ECU to run differently, not by being "better".

Not exactly true. Many intakes do make power by altering the maf signal.

The whole idea behind an intake upgrade is to reduce any pressure drop that may exist in the stock system under wot. The less pressure drop there is, the more air is delivered to the engine under wide open throttle... that is the real reason for intake upgrades.

The reason many intakes lean out the mixture is because they often put the maf sensor in a larger housing which means the stock calibration is no longer correct.

[L3P47]

Originally Posted by forzajuve

Hmm ok... in that case what do I do about ECU tuning the car since that seems to be where the real changes can be made? If I do modest upgrades (basically no super charger or turbo) what can I gain out of a ECU tune and which one?

ECUTEK Tune Stage 2 advertises a 20 hp increase with the tune alone. I know your dead set on the intlet tube matched with a CAI. I was dead set on buying the Perrin Inlet Tube and pairing it with the Perrin CAI. The price of the combined brings you to over $400. I'm ordering the CAI from FA20 Club. Here's the link http://www.fa20club.com/product.php?...cat=299&page=1

Comes down to your own preference and how much money your wanting to spend.

[FR-S Matt]

Originally Posted by L3P47

ECUTEK Tune Stage 2 advertises a 20 hp increase with the tune alone. I know your dead set on the intlet tube matched with a CAI. I was dead set on buying the Perrin Inlet Tube and pairing it with the Perrin CAI. The price of the combined brings you to over $400. I'm ordering the CAI from FA20 Club. Here's the link http://www.fa20club.com/product.php?...cat=299&page=1

Comes down to your own preference and how much money your wanting to spend.

It's not $400 unless you're buying directly from Perrin. I got a nice discount for my set from @FT-86 SpeedFactory

[Vino]

Well just my .2 cents i hope it helps
Most of the CAI wont benefit you till you have a tune, just used the stock air box and put some high flow filter and also i saw you location is from cali, u must consider how strict the law in cali for having aftermarket parts that effect any emission control in the car. My suggestion if your still looking for a CAI for the car is go woth TRD their the only one has CARB legal intake for car right now

[forzajuve]

Ok so, if I get the tube + CAI, then follow that up with an ECUtek tune, THAT is where I will get the most benefit. In that case, what is the best way to ECU tune a car? Just find a shop that does it?

Also, I assume flashing your ECU voids warranty, so is it possible to re-flash to stock settings (excuse lack of terminology) when maintenance time comes around?

Can I do this myself...even though I'm a noob?

[forzajuve]

Did you do this yourself? What would I search for in order to find a shop that tunes cars similar to what you have done? New inlet + cai + ecutek tune could gain me 10-20 hp potentially? Sorry for all the questions, thanks for your help. Just want to clearly understand as best I can.

[JDKane527]

I would wait for Perrin to release their big intake. Bigger gains than their CAI, but requires a tune. You can always get a tune in the meantime.
You can flash back to stock tune, and bring it into the dealership. That might raise more questions though than just going in with the tune loaded to the ROM. When you buy the tune, the tuner will send you a usb-obd2 cable, and you just need a laptop to flash the ecu. You could probably do it from a desktop, but have to set it up near the car.

I'm running Visconti's STG1 tune and its made an improvement in smoother idle and improved midrange.