technique, skills and drills

[alex.s]

I come from the world of 2-wheel racing where all anyone ever talks about is technique, skills and drills and the mistakes we make / why we make them / how they effect us / how to fix it... but i'm trying to find similar threads here... maybe they're just lost in the forest of posts? am I missing a skills & drills thread directory? wrong forum?

[cjd]

I think the driving technique discussion is mostly limited to the video threads (AutoX or track). A few other threads cover setup related discussions vs driver mod. And there are some good bits buried in the C/D Street and STX threads.

[strat61caster]

After decades of experienced people putting stuff online, most people don't hash out the fundamentals on this forum and rather it's kind of up to you to find resources and dig up the 'proper' way on your own. Lots of different sites with their own version and lessons and tips, youtube videos going back decades (I like the old 80's autocross lessons, cheesy as all hell and a bit outdated, but the laws of physics haven't changed).

If you post a video and ask for advice you'll probably get some good tips (especially if you have data logs like throttle and brake and speed), and ask questions in the track/autocross portions of the forum, you'll get some solid opinions and food for thought, but in my experience getting an instructor shotgun is the quickest path to success. I've loved running with Hooked on Driving, they're probably the most expensive group on the West coast but high quality instructors, based on your other thread you've already got track time under your belt, the novice group at HoD would probably be a total bore (but odds are your instructor will push you to go faster and you'll have fun provided there isn't too much traffic) and you might want to search out private coaching at a cheaper track event or something.

Autocross is a cheap way to go out and hammer on your car and try new things with low risk and plenty of friendly people willing to hop in and coach you if they have time as well as the opportunity for you to ride along and learn how far from the limit you really are. Even better is getting someone fast in your own car and realizing how much you leave on the table.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

After decades of experienced people putting stuff online, most people don't hash out the fundamentals on this forum and rather it's kind of up to you to find resources and dig up the 'proper' way on your own. Lots of different sites with their own version and lessons and tips

been watching a lot of videos. got any suggestions for other sites?

[14stu]

Speed Secrets by Ross Bentley, it's a book and covers just about everything about high-performance and race driving.

Just about everything you learned for motorcycles applies to cars. Weight transfer, vision, choosing proper lines, and grip management are all pretty much universal.

If you have specific things you want to learn about, or discuss, start a thread about them. Otherwise, you are asking about a broad topic that takes decades to fully understand and appreciate. There are things that won't make any sense when you first hear them, but eventually you'll grasp their meaning.

It took me years to get to the point of understanding just how much I had yet to learn.

[alex.s]

thanks! i'll read that book. any other book suggestions?

driving a bike fast and driving a car fast are very similar when things are going right. understanding when i'm doing things wrong is harder though. mostly related to understanding the feedback the vehicle is giving i think. and largely related to my feet i think. i'm having a lot of problems feeling the tires (stock premacy) under braking. i often over brake and lock a tire up and have to readjust... (do you even care if it's a rear tire locking up in a car if you're not going to trail brake?) but it's odd because, i donno maybe the stock brakes aren't consistent or whatever (ordered new pads, made brake ducts since last track day) but i think likely it's my foot / feeling of my foot is not consistent enough. it's a little different because you do almost everything with your hands on a bike... any suggestions/resources regarding consistent inputs on the pedals? i like to think i have great throttle control on a bike but in the car i do stupid things like chopping the throttle under slides and sometimes just romping on the throttle uncontrollably (i've got a fun spin video that makes me look like i have no idea what i'm doing!) do different shoes make much of a difference? do i have an excuse to blow money on gear?
i guess i need to do throttle and brake control drills... maybe i should try practicing drifting? obviously more track time always helps, but... ugh, addicted to gofast. MUST GO FAST. you understand.

[14stu]

Start going to as many autocrosses as you can, seat time is the best investment. The stock brakes are not up to track duty (they are ok, but not great for autocross).

Shoes don't matter much, obviously if you are in some thick work boots or high heels you'll have issues, but any old tennis shoe is fine (it's your feet that are the problem, they haven't developed a fine enough touch and feel yet).

The car has ABS, you are not locking up a tire. Braking does two things: one, it slows the car; and two, it transfers weight to the front of the car which increases front end grip while decreasing rear end grip (lifting or easing up on the throttle does the same but to a lesser degree).

First, get some high temp brake fluid and some track pads, that's a safety concern. Next, get some negative camber in the front (oem camber bolts are good for about 1 degree and they cost like $10), this will help with cornering but mostly it'll help your outer edge tire wear.

Then focus on seat time. Autocross will teach you car control, it's the only place where you can safely reach, find, and exceed the limits of your talent and the car's capabilities. Find local instructors, hot shoes, and twin drivers to give you advice (be humble and have a good attitude and you'll get lots of help). Spend some time and money on instruction, it is worth it.

Once you have the basics down and are ready to go fast, start buying tires. If you want to start spending after you have the basics down, invest in some good coilovers, an oil cooler for track, and some sort of data acquisition. Bolt on power mods are fine, but the returns are small.

The parts that get you the most time are:

1. Tightening the nut behind the wheel (5-15s on a 1.5mi course)
2. Tires (3-5s on a 1.5mi course)
3. Suspension (2-3s on a 1.5mi course)
4. Bolt-on Power (1-2s on a 1.5mi course)

[Azzudien]

Additionally to 14STU's post, not sure where on the west coast, but in the east Lime Rock Park has a skid control pad. Awesome place to learn the limits of your car in a controlled and safe environment.
I am sure the west coast people know a track that has one somewhere close to you.

If you are in the east, you can sign up for SCDA car control clinics, and you get 1 on 1 instruction on both a skid control pad and autox course at Lime Rock.

[Icecreamtruk]

I cant believe nobody has recommended Skip barber going faster here yet. Its a really cool instruction video that shows you most of the things that are covered on the good books. I read Ultimate Speed Secrets by Ross Bentley first, then watched the video, it all clicked, because sometimes its hard to imagine something from just reading it (maybe im just visual). Anyways, have at it:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQRmYMlmdqM"]skip barber going faster - YouTube[/ame]

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by 14stu

The car has ABS, you are not locking up a tire.

people keep saying this... i feel like this is part of what i'm not understanding... when it does kick in, i can definitely feel abs. it kicks in about a second after a lockup... you can feel the pulsing in the brake pedal right? you can feel it grab traction again.. pretty obvious when abs kicks in i think normally isn't it?

when i'm going for a hard braking zone and do a nice smooth transition onto full brake and then hear a rear tire sliding, and feel no pull from that side / rear gets super loose... and i don't feel abs kicking in... what is going on in this situation? i'm obviously not locking a tire... its just sliding... maybe it's not a braking problem but an engine braking problem? i feel like i'm ok at heel-toe and try to blip on down shifts... maybe i need to take some video of my feet

[strat61caster]

I like listening to Jackie Stewart talk about driving:


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhgOXVnHYXA"]How to take a corner at speed by Sir Jackie Stewart - FHM (UK) - YouTube[/ame]



http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2o54o2


There's also "Behind the Wheel with Jackie Stewart" on Youtube at an hour long I won't link it here.

http://safeisfast.com/

Academic, more about car design & setup then driving technique
http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...ech_index.html
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html

I lean more technical and less on driving technique, I love Mark Donohue's book, The Unfair Advantage, all about setting up racecars in the '60's and '70's and how he drove compared to the competition, still really relevant today.

when i'm going for a hard braking zone and do a nice smooth transition onto full brake and then hear a rear tire sliding, and feel no pull from that side / rear gets super loose... and i don't feel abs kicking in... what is going on in this situation? i'm obviously not locking a tire... its just sliding... maybe it's not a braking problem but an engine braking problem? i feel like i'm ok at heel-toe and try to blip on down shifts... maybe i need to take some video of my feet

Sounds like you're aggressively trailbraking unintentionally, you're not going to win an HPDE by overdoing it on the brakes.

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by alex.s

people keep saying this... i feel like this is part of what i'm not understanding... when it does kick in, i can definitely feel abs. it kicks in about a second after a lockup... you can feel the pulsing in the brake pedal right? you can feel it grab traction again.. pretty obvious when abs kicks in i think normally isn't it?

When i'm going for a hard braking zone and do a nice smooth transition onto full brake and then hear a rear tire sliding, and feel no pull from that side / rear gets super loose... and i don't feel abs kicking in... what is going on in this situation? i'm obviously not locking a tire... its just sliding... maybe it's not a braking problem but an engine braking problem? i feel like i'm ok at heel-toe and try to blip on down shifts... maybe i need to take some video of my feet

I really doubt you are locking up the rears (or fronts) for a whole 2 seconds before ABS kicks in because it activates much faster than that (the moment there is wheel lock, its almost instant). I suggest you have someone video you from outside, because what you think is happening is probably not what really is going on. You mentioned you were still on stock tires and pads, it may be as simple as brake fade that appears on one side of the car faster than the other (pads that stick a bit can do that for example), and then if one side of the car brakes more than the other, the rear feels loose during braking, regardless if its the front or rear tires that are braking less.

Edit: I assume you are driving with traction control and stability control off (the 5 sec press of the button, or the pedal dance) but I dont see it mentioned here. If you arent, go do that first, as that will be most likely the problem.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

it may be as simple as brake fade that appears on one side of the car faster than the other (pads that stick a bit can do that for example), and then if one side of the car brakes more than the other, the rear feels loose during braking, regardless if its the front or rear tires that are braking less.

Edit: I assume you are driving with traction control and stability control off (the 5 sec press of the button, or the pedal dance) but I dont see it mentioned here. If you arent, go do that first, as that will be most likely the problem.

:O


edit: yeah, everything off... that doesn't turn abs off ever right?

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by alex.s

:O


edit: yeah, everything off... that doesn't turn abs off ever right?

No, abs is only off if you pull the fuse, otherwise its on, even with pedal dance.