Track suspension advice

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

One of the things to think about, how much track time versus street time? Is this 50/50 track and street or more 10 events per year track and the rest street. This is something I just finished going over with a customer also. Once you start getting into higher-end more Motorsport based Coilovers, depending on what the design is you can severely compromise ride quality. That's why knowing how often you're tracking would be good to know.

Cheers,
Jason

It is a little too early to say what my rate will be in the end, but for May I am doing either four or six days (depending upon what I do this weekend). I suspect that I'll probably settle at four days a month (ie 48 a year).

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

Once you start getting into higher-end more Motorsport based Coilovers, depending on what the design is you can severely compromise ride quality.

Total BS!


If you have ever rode with a set of Penkes, Sachs, Ohlins, etc...you would know that they ride more comfortable than stock!! Its all in the valving and how that valving is match to your springs, your vehicle.

Buy Cheap, Buy Twice!!! (Been there, done that!)

Good reference here:

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets18.html

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

Total BS!


If you have ever rode with a set of Penkes, Sachs, Ohlins, etc...you would know that they ride more comfortable than stock!! Its all in the valving and how that valving is match to your springs, your vehicle.

Buy Cheap, Buy Twice!!! (Been there, done that!)

Good reference here:

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets18.html

That is an awesome read and sure to be quite helpful!

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

Total BS!


If you have ever rode with a set of Penkes, Sachs, Ohlins, etc...you would know that they ride more comfortable than stock!! Its all in the valving and how that valving is match to your springs, your vehicle.

Buy Cheap, Buy Twice!!! (Been there, done that!)

I don't remember saying "all" coilovers either Some of the higher-end ones that are really race-bred can compromise daily driving comfort because of valving (ie. designed for flat, smoother race track surfaces), and that's not BS. I never said ALL coilovers. There are definitely ones out there that can be good for both, you just have to make sure you research what you're getting.

[SirBrass]

Dis gonna b gud

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by SirBrass

Dis gonna b gud

No, really its not.

I know you're J/K, but I just watched Jason@DSG & CSG Mike/Dave have the worst exchange in another thread that started with good intent but ended up being hugely FUBAR'd. The CSG guys have a lot of real world knowledge, seat time and experience. They look to inform the public, it's great. It was obvious that Jason@DSG has less of that so it might have been wise to defer to CSG's know-how. He didn't. Despite this lack of data and lesser experience, he still spoke from authority, but gave little specifics. For that, CSG absolutely buried him in that thread. In some ways that came off negative towards CSG, even though their intent was noble. They're fighting all the dis-info and hype out there. Everyone looked not so great in that thread. Anyhow, this thread was going pretty well, so I hope it doesn't devolve into the mess the other one did.

[SirBrass]

I've said it multiple times elsewhere, but I'm an engineer. I see exchanges like this one and my first impression usually is not in the negative. It's a heated exchange between two parties who have some experience in what they're talking about. I haven't exactly seen it get personal and therefore it hasn't gotten ugly.

And I'm enjoying all the info that comes flooding out in the exchange.

Then again, I'm used to directly-spoken folks. It's just part of what I'm used to thanks to my career.

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by SirBrass

I've said it multiple times elsewhere, but I'm an engineer. I see exchanges like this one and my first impression usually is not in the negative. It's a heated exchange between two parties who have some experience in what they're talking about. I haven't exactly seen it get personal and therefore it hasn't gotten ugly.

And I'm enjoying all the info that comes flooding out in the exchange.

Then again, I'm used to directly-spoken folks. It's just part of what I'm used to thanks to my career.

I may be a civilian and an engineer, but I deal with Marines on a consistent basis. You want zero filter? I'll get insta-banned.

Back to OP. Stock setup has been a good setup. In fact on some of the local tracks, the stock suspension/power/aero factory car with pads, fluid, and 140-200TW tire holds a record lap time faster than 98% of the setups present in the community.

[DAEMANO]

I'm an analyst, I deal with multiple interested parties, executives, and data of all sorts. Direct is my preference as well. In my experience disagreeing without being disagreeable typically is more productive than a flame war. Some enjoy that kind of conflict (popcorn, dis gun be gud, etc), some do not. http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65642 . Personally I think exchanges of idea are more productive when cool heads show up. Andy at RaceComp and Robftss are notorious for this. In any case, this is off topic. So let's get back on topic.

Originally Posted by SirBrass

I've said it multiple times elsewhere, but I'm an engineer. I see exchanges like this one and my first impression usually is not in the negative. It's a heated exchange between two parties who have some experience in what they're talking about. I haven't exactly seen it get personal and therefore it hasn't gotten ugly.

And I'm enjoying all the info that comes flooding out in the exchange.

Then again, I'm used to directly-spoken folks. It's just part of what I'm used to thanks to my career.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

That is an awesome read and sure to be quite helpful!

Dennis has certainly provided enough to keep someone busy for a week or two taking in all that is on his site. If nothing else, it will expose a person to many of the issues related to building a successful performance car. Not all of it, however, can be taken as gospel. (I know, big surprise.) For example, the following passage from this page: http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets9.html

"But it was that little bump that was interesting. That bump indicates the area where a human can outbrake the ABS. If the driver is properly threshold braking, properly modulating the brake pedal force to stop just short of activating the ABS, he can stop the vehicle faster than if the ABS is actively pulsing.

My own testing proved it. On concrete, with race tires on, I could consistently outbrake the ABS system."

Not on my car. Period.

You must test this for yourself - using your car, with the tires and brakes you run at the track, at the temperatures at which they run on-track, and someplace where it's safe to do it (note that tracks generally prefer that you not engage in this sort of activity on their property).

I did it by running my car up to 70 MPH in 3rd gear and testing the brakes at the following "ABS levels":

1) Full-on ABS;
2) 3/4 ABS (i.e., full-on ABS immediately backed-down a bit);
3) 1/2 ABS (i.e., full-on ABS immediately backed-down halfway);
4) 1/4 ABS;
5) Just out of the ABS (as Dennis describes above).

My shortest stop is #2, and it's 6' shorter than #1. The others were longer stops than #1. This is on a car with an ABS ECU designed around a quarter-century ago. As always, your mileage is almost guaranteed to vary.

Moral of the story: trust, then verify - i.e., confirm for yourself as much as you personally can when being presented with seemingly factual information; a healthy curiosity/skepticism is a valuable aid as you work towards becoming your own expert.

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by dradernh

Dennis has certainly provided enough to keep someone busy for a week or two taking in all that is on his site. If nothing else, it will expose a person to many of the issues related to building a successful performance car. Not all of it, however, can be taken as gospel. (I know, big surprise.) For example, the following passage from this page: http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets9.html

"But it was that little bump that was interesting. That bump indicates the area where a human can outbrake the ABS. If the driver is properly threshold braking, properly modulating the brake pedal force to stop just short of activating the ABS, he can stop the vehicle faster than if the ABS is actively pulsing.

My own testing proved it. On concrete, with race tires on, I could consistently outbrake the ABS system."

Not on my car. Period.

You must test this for yourself - using your car, with the tires and brakes you run at the track, at the temperatures at which they run on-track, and someplace where it's safe to do it (note that tracks generally prefer that you not engage in this sort of activity on their property).

I did it by running my car up to 70 MPH in 3rd gear and testing the brakes at the following "ABS levels":

1) Full-on ABS;
2) 3/4 ABS (i.e., full-on ABS immediately backed-down a bit);
3) 1/2 ABS (i.e., full-on ABS immediately backed-down halfway);
4) 1/4 ABS;
5) Just out of the ABS (as Dennis describes above).

My shortest stop is #2, and it's 6' shorter than #1. The others were longer stops than #1. This is on a car with an ABS ECU designed around a quarter-century ago. As always, your mileage is almost guaranteed to vary.

Moral of the story: trust, then verify - i.e., confirm for yourself as much as you personally can when being presented with seemingly factual information; a healthy curiosity/skepticism is a valuable aid as you work towards becoming your own expert.

Thank you for that blurb. This is what we do all the time. We are skeptical at claims, we test claims, we assess those claims, and then we validate and verify claims. We could very well change our position if we are proven that there is strong evidence of those claims. It does help that we have a large variety of cars to work with in Southern California.

On another note, suspension setup is more or less similar, but settings are always different. An AWD car cannot be setup the same was as a FR, MR, or FF setup. Likewise to other cars due to different wheelbase lengths, factory aero, and chassis stiffness.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by CSG David

On another note, suspension setup is more or less similar, but settings are always different. An AWD car cannot be setup the same was as a FR, MR, or FF setup. Likewise to other cars due to different wheelbase lengths, factory aero, and chassis stiffness.

+1

Apples-to-apples.

[simpleisbest]

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

I don't remember saying "all" coilovers either Some of the higher-end ones that are really race-bred can compromise daily driving comfort because of valving (ie. designed for flat, smoother race track surfaces), and that's not BS. I never said ALL coilovers. There are definitely ones out there that can be good for both, you just have to make sure you research what you're getting.

^Again mostly untrue. The benefit of most high-end dampers (Penske, Sachs, MCS, Ohlins, JRZ, custom Bilsteins, Koni race) is the compliance and grip they provide over rough patches (how many smooth tracks do you know? this is not Japan!!), while maintaining tire contact and grip = this is what you are paying $$$ for and the very characteristic is what makes them very comfortable on the street. As long as the valving is properly matched for the car and the spring, the shock should be able to be adjusted for the street.

Again, this is the motorsports section....the brands I mentioned are what I consider "high-end". You're experience and opinion obviously is very different. I expect that you do not have any first hand knowledge on custom tuned applications from any of the brands I mentioned.

Regardless of purchase price, I don't consider BuddyClub, Stance, BC, etc...to be "high-end". I assume that most people who frequent this section of the forum think similarly.

You often put FA in the same sentence as Ohlins, Penske, JRZ, Moton and imply that FA's top end product is one the same level, yet "better" for the street. I don't really understand your logic.

Personally, I think FA is in the same level as Stance, BC, etc...Those brands are all similar featuring all the catch phrase bells and whistles (monotube, adjustable, Xmm size piston, X # of clicks, X type of coating, X type bearings), yet when it comes to any real competition where performance can be measured I fail to see their name anywhere.

If FA has the performance and we just don't know about it, SHOW US!!

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by simpleisbest

^Again mostly untrue. The benefit of most high-end dampers (Penske, Sachs, MCS, Ohlins, JRZ, custom Bilsteins, Koni race) is the compliance and grip they provide over rough patches (how many smooth tracks do you know? this is not Japan!!), while maintaining tire contact and grip = this is what you are paying $$$ for and the very characteristic is what makes them very comfortable on the street. As long as the valving is properly matched for the car and the spring, the shock should be able to be adjusted for the street.

Again, this is the motorsports section....the brands I mentioned are what I consider "high-end". You're experience and opinion obviously is very different. I expect that you do not have any first hand knowledge on custom tuned applications from any of the brands I mentioned.

Regardless of purchase price, I don't consider BuddyClub, Stance, BC, etc...to be "high-end". I assume that most people who frequent this section of the forum think similarly.

You often put FA in the same sentence as Ohlins, Penske, JRZ, Moton and imply that FA's top end product is one the same level, yet "better" for the street. I don't really understand your logic.

Personally, I think FA is in the same level as Stance, BC, etc...Those brands are all similar featuring all the catch phrase bells and whistles (monotube, adjustable, Xmm size piston, X # of clicks, X type of coating, X type bearings), yet when it comes to any real competition where performance can be measured I fail to see their name anywhere.

If FA has the performance and we just don't know about it, SHOW US!!

I'd like you to go back in this specific thread and find where I wrote FA anywhere...I never did so I suggest not putting words in my mouth. You are also hijacking the thread for something I didn't even say so sorry to the OP

I personally think the OP should go for a JRZ RS Pro for his application IMO He's doing pretty extensive tracking and has the budget based on what he said. I in no way feel that FA is better than JRZ and I clarified what I was saying in the other thread. We sell JRZ, Ohlins and KW to many customers as well as just as many FA, it's based on the customers needs.

Since you ask, specifically in regards to Fortune Auto, here are some recent racing accomplishments (posted in my other thread):

For real word "data" a set of Fortune Auto Dreadnought 2-ways were what won the 1-Lap of America (in its class) for 2013 in a BRZ/FRS (That's 10 tracks in 10 days with 4000 miles of driving between tracks). I'm certain it was a lot of supporting mods and the most important driver mod, but Fortune Auto has had major success in racing.

Recently an Evo9 running the FA Dreadnought 2-way and took 4 seconds off his lap time from his previous year when he was running a different 2-way setup with no other mod changes, just changing to the FA 2-way. An EvoX with an FA 500 setup with Swift's broke the record for the Enthusiast Class at Global Time Attack. There's the infamous Fortune Auto FWD Civic which ran the Global Time Attack Unlimited 510 series broke numerous records. While I know Global Time Attack doesn't test suspension to it's max potential, it's a decent gauge. These are just some of the numerous examples but they are irrelevant to this topic.


Sorry for any hijacking of this thread to the OP. PM if you need any help whatsoever deciding between the many brands and their specs.


Cheers,
Jason