Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[DocWalt]

For $15 I'll take the peace of mind and ease of mounting wheels.

I can go on with stories of how car I've owned had vibrations on the highway without hub rings (or VERY careful tightening of lug nuts while holding the wheel centered) but I'd rather not waste my breath and attract the anti-hub ring people.

[kch]

Originally Posted by Yanbags

Hi guys,

Question about wheel hub rings on track. I've read and was told mixed things from seemingly credible sources about whether or not to use them. On track, I'm running 17x9 Enkei RPF1 wheels w/ RE71R tires.

From what I'm gathering for the BRZ on the forums - the wheels are centered by the lugs since they're conical, and after proper star-pattern torquing, there is no load on the studs/lugs. My alignment/race shop and a customer of theirs this weekend claimed metal (aluminum?) hub rings are very much recommended because they've seen broken studs when not used. I tend to trust them because they have several years of track experience and STI/BRZ specific setups but I'm a sitting duck on this one.

What gives?

Like above, I prefer the peace of mind of using aluminum hub rings. There is no real downside.

[infinity21]

Originally Posted by Yanbags

Hi guys,

Question about wheel hub rings on track. I've read and was told mixed things from seemingly credible sources about whether or not to use them. On track, I'm running 17x9 Enkei RPF1 wheels w/ RE71R tires.

From what I'm gathering for the BRZ on the forums - the wheels are centered by the lugs since they're conical, and after proper star-pattern torquing, there is no load on the studs/lugs. My alignment/race shop and a customer of theirs this weekend claimed metal (aluminum?) hub rings are very much recommended because they've seen broken studs when not used. I tend to trust them because they have several years of track experience and STI/BRZ specific setups but I'm a sitting duck on this one.

What gives?



FYI - I also run the RCE T2 400/400 with their out of the box recommended settings for damper clicks and I wouldn't say it understeers at all on track. It could very well likely be your alignment setup; what are your alignment specs?

I'm running -3/-2.1 f/r camber and zero toe all around. I don't think the understeer is pronounced but I felt it was there. I've since raised the rear a centimetre for clearance reasons plus removed extra weight from the rear (all the tools and the OEM Scion rubber mat on top of the spare tire) and it seems to have made the car pretty neutral.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Yanbags

Hi guys,

Question about wheel hub rings on track. I've read and was told mixed things from seemingly credible sources about whether or not to use them. On track, I'm running 17x9 Enkei RPF1 wheels w/ RE71R tires.

From what I'm gathering for the BRZ on the forums - the wheels are centered by the lugs since they're conical, and after proper star-pattern torquing, there is no load on the studs/lugs. My alignment/race shop and a customer of theirs this weekend claimed metal (aluminum?) hub rings are very much recommended because they've seen broken studs when not used. I tend to trust them because they have several years of track experience and STI/BRZ specific setups but I'm a sitting duck on this one.

What gives?

FYI - I also run the RCE T2 400/400 with their out of the box recommended settings for damper clicks and I wouldn't say it understeers at all on track. It could very well likely be your alignment setup; what are your alignment specs?

There was a discussion a few pages back about hub rings when I asked, the long and short of it is:

If you torque your wheels properly every time, you don't need a ring, the bore doesn't take a significant portion of the load and is used primarily as an alignment feature. The lugs and studs do all the work.

I've got a set of plastic rings that came with my RPF1's, I usually use them for autocross because they're free and relatively low hassle. Except they get stuck and I have to pry them off with a screwdriver, need to get to the hubs with some scotchbrite and clear up the gunk buildup...

You can search this thread for 'hubcentric' and come up with most of the posts on the topic, but I already did it so here's the links:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...ic#post1015715

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...ic#post2557865

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...ic#post2558002

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Yanbags

Hi guys,

Question about wheel hub rings on track. I've read and was told mixed things from seemingly credible sources about whether or not to use them. On track, I'm running 17x9 Enkei RPF1 wheels w/ RE71R tires.

From what I'm gathering for the BRZ on the forums - the wheels are centered by the lugs since they're conical, and after proper star-pattern torquing, there is no load on the studs/lugs. My alignment/race shop and a customer of theirs this weekend claimed metal (aluminum?) hub rings are very much recommended because they've seen broken studs when not used. I tend to trust them because they have several years of track experience and STI/BRZ specific setups but I'm a sitting duck on this one.

What gives?



FYI - I also run the RCE T2 400/400 with their out of the box recommended settings for damper clicks and I wouldn't say it understeers at all on track. It could very well likely be your alignment setup; what are your alignment specs?

Rings are not necessary, but it removes the stress from the stud from the first lug being tightened, if you're not evening tightening slowly, e.g. using an impact to put on the studs.

RCE T2 are designed to understeer. Making the T2 with stock spring rates neutral or oversteer can only be achieved by taking away grip from the front axle (which is slower; you're reducing grip).

@dp1 is local to you, and can demonstrate for you a truly neutral setup.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Takumi788

I am looking to change the pads in my almost track only car. (I drive to some car shows and to the track only.) I want to go with the Hawk DTC-60 pads. I hear rumors of blank rotors being 100% good to track with. Is this true? or is slotted the way to go? My car is NA with DOT slicks.

Blanks are used because they're cheapest. Drilled rotors tend to crack faster. Slotted can increase bite, but that's purely a preference thing.

I recommend you go with a pad with a non-corrosive brake dust.

[Yanbags]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

For $15 I'll take the peace of mind and ease of mounting wheels.

I can go on with stories of how car I've owned had vibrations on the highway without hub rings (or VERY careful tightening of lug nuts while holding the wheel centered) but I'd rather not waste my breath and attract the anti-hub ring people.

Originally Posted by kch

Like above, I prefer the peace of mind of using aluminum hub rings. There is no real downside.

Thanks for chiming in.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

There was a discussion a few pages back about hub rings when I asked, the long and short of it is:

If you torque your wheels properly every time, you don't need a ring, the bore doesn't take a significant portion of the load and is used primarily as an alignment feature. The lugs and studs do all the work.

I've got a set of plastic rings that came with my RPF1's, I usually use them for autocross because they're free and relatively low hassle. Except they get stuck and I have to pry them off with a screwdriver, need to get to the hubs with some scotchbrite and clear up the gunk buildup...

You can search this thread for 'hubcentric' and come up with most of the posts on the topic, but I already did it so here's the links:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...ic#post1015715

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...ic#post2557865

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...ic#post2558002

Thanks for this, didn't notice the posts on this thread when searching.

Originally Posted by infinity21

I'm running -3/-2.1 f/r camber and zero toe all around. I don't think the understeer is pronounced but I felt it was there. I've since raised the rear a centimetre for clearance reasons plus removed extra weight from the rear (all the tools and the OEM Scion rubber mat on top of the spare tire) and it seems to have made the car pretty neutral.

I see, I'm pretty much the same at -3/-2 but .06* toe out F, .06* toe in R. I watched your video, it's a little hard to tell. Do you find yourself maybe going into corners too hot and over-driving the front tires? Tire pressures okay? With my RE71R tires, I find the car totally neutral and it rotates very well with throttle.

[kch]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

RCE T2 are designed to understeer.

What can be done to make them more neutral without slowing down?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by kch

What can be done to make them more neutral without slowing down?

Increase the rear net spring rate or decrease the front net spring rate.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

RCE T2 are designed to understeer. Making the T2 with stock spring rates neutral or oversteer can only be achieved by taking away grip from the front axle (which is slower; you're reducing grip).

Typo?

[EAGLE5]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Typo?

Nah, OP likes to drive backwards.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Typo?

Oops.

Taking away grip from the rear.

[infinity21]

Originally Posted by Yanbags

I see, I'm pretty much the same at -3/-2 but .06* toe out F, .06* toe in R. I watched your video, it's a little hard to tell. Do you find yourself maybe going into corners too hot and over-driving the front tires? Tire pressures okay? With my RE71R tires, I find the car totally neutral and it rotates very well with throttle.

I purposely make it understeer more because I think it's faster. I can make it oversteer if I step on the throttle too early but I find I can corner harder if I don't break traction.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by infinity21

I purposely make it understeer more because I think it's faster. I can make it oversteer if I step on the throttle too early but I find I can corner harder if I don't break traction.

It's easier to extract a quick time out of an understeery car, but the fastest state of cornering is a mild state of oversteer, where both the front and rear tires simultaneously are at the limit of adhesion. Understeer means you still have untapped rear grip. Oversteer means you have untapped front grip.