Breaking the Silence

[FirestormFRS]

I think the IS-F is a completely different setup. You're not comparing apples to apples and you have done zero research on the DI/PI hybrid system on the FA20.

You're opinion isn't worth much. Do the same research as the OP and come back and refute their findings, otherwise move along and stop vendor bashing.

[MrSlay]

Originally Posted by FirestormFRS

I think the IS-F is a completely different setup. You're not comparing apples to apples and you have done zero research on the DI/PI hybrid system on the FA20.

You're opinion isn't worth much. Do the same research as the OP and come back and refute their findings, otherwise move along and stop vendor bashing.

I'm not vendor bashing and you apparently have no idea what your talking about. The op was right on when he responded about the sharp edges and dead spot caused by removing the Direct Injector. It's evident that the op has done research and good development with the plug. That said, my comments are focused on how the piston is affected when this is done and just what was done to get around the design of the piston. Max Orido failed and it took my team a bit to figure it out, so if the op has been able to run the setup under race conditions without failure I give him all the props in the world and would love to know just why it works.

Factory piston from my ISF



Factory piston from a Fa20 on the left.


The piston designs are very similar. Problem we were having was that after the head work the piston was still getting extremely hot and failing In the same spot that Orido was


I'll exit the thread here because I'm not looking to hurt anyone's business or attack anyone. I'm just interested in how the op got around the issues that come with DI removal.

Sent from my phone so sorry for any typos

[FirestormFRS]

Originally Posted by MrSlay

I'll exit the thread here because I'm not looking to hurt anyone's business or attack anyone. I'm just interested in how the op got around the issues that come with DI removal.

Sent from my phone so sorry for any typos

Don't discount anyones work before you've even seen what research has been done next time.

[Carolina Dyno]

I want to point out something I may have not made obvious. DO NOT run the stock DI system and just turn the injectors off. That is what Max did when he had failures with his drift car and it would be the same case in the FA20. If you leave the stock DI injectors in you MUST run at least some volume of fuel through them.

It's also worth noting that the stock piston is obviously designed to run a DI injector and of course I would recommend an aftermarket piston properly designed for the application.

Pistons melt from prolonged knock or pre-detonation not because they aren't being sprayed with fuel. Granted the stock piston has a lot of hot spots that will make a potential knock scenario worse but they are present with or without the DI.

[sw20kosh]

Interesting!

So this was your test:

Motec + DI = more knock prone
Motec + DI deleted = less knock prone

Or was it:

Stock ECU + DI = more knock prone
Motec + DI deleted = less knock prone

[crazyfrenchbiker]

I really like this thread. Please keep up the great work team, I look forwarding to seeing your products on the market.

[rusty959]

Originally Posted by MrSlay

I'll exit the thread here because I'm not looking to hurt anyone's business or attack anyone. I'm just interested in how the op got around the issues that come with DI removal.

Sent from my phone so sorry for any typos

Please don't exit the thread. You extracted a lot of information already from OP that we wouldn't have otherwise gotten. I'm not educated enough to be able to challenge OP into sharing information that we all of course want, so we need people like you.

And thanks to Carolina Dyno for sharing your findings. I love reading responses to challenges, such as the ones above. We all learn.

Or at least I do.

[mid_life_crisis]

I don'r understand the fuss some are making. From what I've read, when going full out with a FI system (built motor level) it's pretty much standard procedure to lower the compression (piston replacement ), dramatically increase the injector capacity and delete the DI system. The OP's company just developed a kit to do that for the twins.
I thought replacing the pistons went without saying.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Carolina Dyno

Consider their definition of good is mostly in regards to emissions. Performance wise the FA20 is way behind the times. 2.0l engines have been making way more power without DI, or variable cams for years even straight from the factory.

I've attached a picture (not mine I just circled what I'm talking about).

How's the area under the curve of this motor compared to other high output 2.0Ls? Do you feel that the FA20's combustion chamber is the biggest hurdle in the quest for power, or are the head ports and manifolds what's holding back this motor?

Forgive me, but that looks like it could be fixed with a file and a few seconds if the heads were already out. Will your DI delete kit require the heads be removed?

[350matt]

Agreed
if the sharp edges in the chamber are such a problem did you try some heads with everything smoothed out?

also does the standard head gasket leave any voids/ places for dead gas to sit? As it looks like the gasket impression is a way off the valves and edge of the chamber

[Carolina Dyno]

Originally Posted by Calum

How's the area under the curve of this motor compared to other high output 2.0Ls? Do you feel that the FA20's combustion chamber is the biggest hurdle in the quest for power, or are the head ports and manifolds what's holding back this motor?

If we're honest it's pretty bad, compare it to any Honda motor and it's down on power by a huge margin BUT it does have a lot of potential. The intake ports are huge and don't need a whole lot of work, the exhaust ports are ok at best but can be improved. IMO the combustion chamber isn't great, the piston is terrible, the crankcase evacuation is poor, and the cams are awful. That said the valvetrain is great and the engine architecture is excellent. The platform will come a long way but it's going to take some new parts.

Forgive me, but that looks like it could be fixed with a file and a few seconds if the heads were already out. Will your DI delete kit require the heads be removed?

No you will not need to remove the heads, we only did so for the design of the part. Our kit is installed just like a standard pump and injector R&R.

You could file those spots down but at that point I personally would just weld it up, smooth it out, and put a non DI piston in it.

Originally Posted by 350matt

Agreed
if the sharp edges in the chamber are such a problem did you try some heads with everything smoothed out?

I will but I have to test these first believe me I would have loved to build the whole thing right from "go"

also does the standard head gasket leave any voids/ places for dead gas to sit? As it looks like the gasket impression is a way off the valves and edge of the chamber

It looks like that but in reality it's fine and it's a super thin head gasket, I can see why some people have had issues although ours was fine and we haven't seen any failures locally yet.

[350matt]

the reason for asking was I note Cosworth sell these

http://www.karperformance.com/Produc...jc=&ProId=NTQ0

which come right up to the edge of the chamber, do you think there's any benefit to this?

[BRZGM3]

In for updates! Which efr is that?

[Carolina Dyno]

Originally Posted by 350matt

the reason for asking was I note Cosworth sell these

http://www.karperformance.com/Produc...jc=&ProId=NTQ0

which come right up to the edge of the chamber, do you think there's any benefit to this?

I would say it's probably marginal at best, that said when we do built the engine we will likely be using those gaskets.

Originally Posted by BRZGM3

In for updates! Which efr is that?

It's the EFR 7670 with the T4 divided externally gated housing.