Breaking the Silence

[Carolina Dyno]

We've had a busy year and developing the FR-S project took a little longer than we hoped but that doesn't mean we haven't been making progess...

We're finally at a point where we have some good solid development work behind us and are ready to start putting some products out. After a year of prototypes, testing, and final revisions we are finally ready to put our hard work on the market. To help us continue our development of this platform we are now up and running with the new MoTeC M142 ecu which we will be using to extensively analyze our own products as well as any that we happen to use along the way.

We will shortly be offering our turbo kit, a direct injection delete kit, a front and rear Stoptech big brake package, and more. We will have some major updates shortly but in the meantime I just wanted to get back on the forums and make sure you all haven't forgotten about us ... A few teasers below to hold you over for the release threads...







Rendering of the HPFP block off for our direct injection delete kit:


MoTeC M1 knock control testing:

[cnk]

Well that HPFP delete kit is one way to silence the crickets for good. LOL

[rusty959]

Why would you want to delete the direct injection in the first place? Unless its just for tuning ease for your Motec system.

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by rusty959

Why would you want to delete the direct injection in the first place? Unless its just for tuning ease for your Motec system.

Doesn't make much sense. Motec's M1 should be fully FT86 compatible and seeing as the DI provides way more of the fuel than the stock PI and with the added knock resistance it gives, why remove it?

The only advantage I see is if you're building a beast of an engine where you won't know how they'll hold up.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Kodename47

Doesn't make much sense. Motec's M1 should be fully FT86 compatible and seeing as the DI provides way more of the fuel than the stock PI and with the added knock resistance it gives, why remove it?

The only advantage I see is if you're building a beast of an engine where you won't know how they'll hold up.

Did you see the intercooler? I'm guessing their building that beast.

[hmong337]

Why delete DI?

[MrSlay]

Dont mean to be "That Guy", but it doesn't seem that you guys have done the proper testing and research based on the products that you plan to bring to the market. Deleting the direct injection without offering a piston upgrade leads me to believe that you haven't looked into how doing so affects the way the factory DI piston design reacts to the extra heat. There is no problem with deleting the direct injection (though I dont see the reason for this other than tuners lack of ability), but doing so while utilizing the stock piston design will lead to a failure.

When I get back from the office ill point out some of the things that happen on a 2ur(ISF Engine) Piston when the direct injection is deleted and the heating/cooling dynamics change in the combustion chamber.

[MightyMeeple]

Very pleased to see a shop based in North Carolina supporting our platform! I'm looking forward to more formal announcements and details.

[mrk1]

Awesome stuff. The advantage I see of deleting DI is simplicity. K.I.S.S.

[Carolina Dyno]

Originally Posted by MrSlay

Dont mean to be "That Guy", but it doesn't seem that you guys have done the proper testing and research based on the products that you plan to bring to the market. Deleting the direct injection without offering a piston upgrade leads me to believe that you haven't looked into how doing so affects the way the factory DI piston design reacts to the extra heat. There is no problem with deleting the direct injection (though I dont see the reason for this other than tuners lack of ability), but doing so while utilizing the stock piston design will lead to a failure.

When I get back from the office ill point out some of the things that happen on a 2ur(ISF Engine) Piston when the direct injection is deleted and the heating/cooling dynamics change in the combustion chamber.

This is why I rarely post on the forums. No offense but by doing the "proper testing and research" I assume in your case you mean reading a bunch of stuff on the internet? There is no reason to call someone out that is doing nothing but trying to help the platform by doing actual research because you read something.

When we talk about research we mean buying a brand new FR-S as soon as they are released, driving it straight from the dealership to our in house dyno. We had the car tuned on BRZEdit before it had 25 miles on it. From there we drove it just long enough to be bored and know the tune was safe. We went ahead and pulled the motor to get some hands on experience, we were going to need a clutch anyway.

While it was out the stories of failing DI pumps and injector seals started popping up left and right. Rather than waiting for a problem I figured I'd go ahead and find a solution just in case. We pulled the heads off and measured for a complete direct injection delete kit if it came to that.

When you look at the combustion side of the direct injector when installed in the head you will notice a lot of small sharp edges exposed. We were able to machine the injector blank to fill the dead space between those sharp edges effectively "softening" the combustion chamber.

We went ahead and put it all back together bone stock for testing purposes despite being so close to being able to build the motor. From there we started on our turbo kit, fan shrouds, catch can, and more.

When we got it back up and running we tuned it again on BRZEdit and the stock DI setup, we have also used ECUTek just for comparisons sake, and now run MoTeC just for it's extensive capabilities.

We were actually able to make more power, and run more timing WITHOUT the DI which even we were surprised about but after seeing the combustion chamber I understand why. It's very evident with MoTeC's knock monitoring that it's a safer combustion environment with the DI removed completely. We have actual data with each cylinder's knock level measured on four adjustable frequencies.

You're talking about a modification that takes away dozens of points of failure (some catastrophic), makes the car simpler, more powerful, lighter, more reliable, easier to work on, easier to tune...

Keep in mind I'm not saying all DI is bad, I am in the middle of building a DI flow bench to provide DI pump and injector data for aftermarket ECU's capable of driving them. I have tuned multiple direct injection vehicles including many FA20 vehicles, and I intend to continue DI testing even on the FA20, but the simple truth is this particular DI system as it comes from the factory just isn't worth it's weight.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Carolina Dyno

This is why I rarely post on the forums. No offense but by doing the "proper testing and research" I assume in your case you mean reading a bunch of stuff on the internet? There is no reason to call someone out that is doing nothing but trying to help the platform by doing actual research because you read something.

When we talk about research we mean buying a brand new FR-S as soon as they are released, driving it straight from the dealership to our in house dyno. We had the car tuned on BRZEdit before it had 25 miles on it. From there we drove it just long enough to be bored and know the tune was safe. We went ahead and pulled the motor to get some hands on experience, we were going to need a clutch anyway.

While it was out the stories of failing DI pumps and injector seals started popping up left and right. Rather than waiting for a problem I figured I'd go ahead and find a solution just in case. We pulled the heads off and measured for a complete direct injection delete kit if it came to that.

When you look at the combustion side of the direct injector when installed in the head you will notice a lot of small sharp edges exposed. We were able to machine the injector blank to fill the dead space between those sharp edges effectively "softening" the combustion chamber.

We went ahead and put it all back together bone stock for testing purposes despite being so close to being able to build the motor. From there we started on our turbo kit, fan shrouds, catch can, and more.

When we got it back up and running we tuned it again on BRZEdit and the stock DI setup, we have also used ECUTek just for comparisons sake, and now run MoTeC just for it's extensive capabilities.

We were actually able to make more power, and run more timing WITHOUT the DI which even we were surprised about but after seeing the combustion chamber I understand why. It's very evident with MoTeC's knock monitoring that it's a safer combustion environment with the DI removed completely. We have actual data with each cylinder's knock level measured on four adjustable frequencies.

You're talking about a modification that takes away dozens of points of failure (some catastrophic), makes the car simpler, more powerful, lighter, more reliable, easier to work on, easier to tune...

Keep in mind I'm not saying all DI is bad, I am in the middle of building a DI flow bench to provide DI pump and injector data for aftermarket ECU's capable of driving them. I have tuned multiple direct injection vehicles including many FA20 vehicles, and I intend to continue DI testing even on the FA20, but the simple truth is this particular DI system as it comes from the factory just isn't worth it's weight.

He was being abrasive but you have to understand the skepticism. Another part of research is vetting sources. Obviously there are better ways than being rude, though. The benefits of DI are well known and the idea of Toyota/Subaru designing a CC that's reportedly very good, but failing to smooth those edges to prevent hot spots is surprising. Im sure you were surprised at first as well. Thank you for sharing you findings with us, I can't wait to see your release posts and hopefully some before and after results.

Is there any application where you would say keeping the DI would be better on this car?

Is there any possibility of keeping the DI but smoothing the CC? Possibly adding material to the head and then machining the area to better fit the injector?

Did you notice any significant change in milage without the DI?

I'm pretty sure I speak for everyone when I say I'd love to see pics of what you talking about.

[spitfire481]

What kind of power are you looking to make?

[MrSlay]

Originally Posted by Carolina Dyno

This is why I rarely post on the forums. No offense but by doing the "proper testing and research" I assume in your case you mean reading a bunch of stuff on the internet? There is no reason to call someone out that is doing nothing but trying to help the platform by doing actual research because you read something.

When we talk about research we mean buying a brand new FR-S as soon as they are released, driving it straight from the dealership to our in house dyno. We had the car tuned on BRZEdit before it had 25 miles on it. From there we drove it just long enough to be bored and know the tune was safe. We went ahead and pulled the motor to get some hands on experience, we were going to need a clutch anyway.

While it was out the stories of failing DI pumps and injector seals started popping up left and right. Rather than waiting for a problem I figured I'd go ahead and find a solution just in case. We pulled the heads off and measured for a complete direct injection delete kit if it came to that.

When you look at the combustion side of the direct injector when installed in the head you will notice a lot of small sharp edges exposed. We were able to machine the injector blank to fill the dead space between those sharp edges effectively "softening" the combustion chamber.

We went ahead and put it all back together bone stock for testing purposes despite being so close to being able to build the motor. From there we started on our turbo kit, fan shrouds, catch can, and more.

When we got it back up and running we tuned it again on BRZEdit and the stock DI setup, we have also used ECUTek just for comparisons sake, and now run MoTeC just for it's extensive capabilities.

We were actually able to make more power, and run more timing WITHOUT the DI which even we were surprised about but after seeing the combustion chamber I understand why. It's very evident with MoTeC's knock monitoring that it's a safer combustion environment with the DI removed completely. We have actual data with each cylinder's knock level measured on four adjustable frequencies.

You're talking about a modification that takes away dozens of points of failure (some catastrophic), makes the car simpler, more powerful, lighter, more reliable, easier to work on, easier to tune...

Keep in mind I'm not saying all DI is bad, I am in the middle of building a DI flow bench to provide DI pump and injector data for aftermarket ECU's capable of driving them. I have tuned multiple direct injection vehicles including many FA20 vehicles, and I intend to continue DI testing even on the FA20, but the simple truth is this particular DI system as it comes from the factory just isn't worth it's weight.

Lol no. Considering the ISF guys have been there and done that, I know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm still not home so I can't just grab a piston from one of my 2ur's to show you where the piston is going to overheat so let me find something readily available on the Internet.

Sorry if you took it the wrong way, but the issue has already been funded, researched, and overcome.

[Carolina Dyno]

Originally Posted by Calum

The benefits of DI are well known and the idea of Toyota/Subaru designing a CC that's reportedly very good, but failing to smooth those edges to prevent hot spots is surprising.

Consider their definition of good is mostly in regards to emissions. Performance wise the FA20 is way behind the times. 2.0l engines have been making way more power without DI, or variable cams for years even straight from the factory.

Is there any application where you would say keeping the DI would be better on this car?

At this point no but like I said we will continue developing the DI and with the MoTeC controlling it we can do some potentially interesting things with it so I may have to go back on this one.

Is there any possibility of keeping the DI but smoothing the CC? Possibly adding material to the head and then machining the area to better fit the injector?

This is definitely possible but at that point personally I would build the motor with some custom non DI pistons.

Did you notice any significant change in milage without the DI?

I'm pretty sure I speak for everyone when I say I'd love to see pics of what you talking about.

We didn't see any measurable difference in fuel economy. I've attached a picture (not mine I just circled what I'm talking about).



When you see all these new technologies keep in mind they aren't optimized for performance, they are optimized for; cost, emissions, and fuel economy, generally in that order.