What attributes should Toyota and Subaru retain in the Second Generation FT-86 (aka

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by dowroa

hmm... respectfully disagree with proof of 100% stock BRZ PP and @justin 's STX prepped
and tuned 2017 BRZ on an uphill section.

It's a 2 liter NA 4 banger, what do you expect.

Even with full exhaust and a tune this car does not start to make power until above 4k RPM and it doesn't really start to pull really well till around 5k. In the video he is right at 4k on top of the fact that he is at high elevation You either shift down, or it's not worth shifting down you have to wait for the revs to build a bit.

[dowroa]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

It's a 2 liter NA 4 banger, what do you expect.

Even with full exhaust and a tune this car does not start to make power until above 4k RPM and it doesn't really start to pull really well till around 5k. In the video he is right at 4k on top of the fact that he is at high elevation You either shift down, or it's not worth shifting down you have to wait for the revs to build a bit.

I think you may have missed that he (the modified car) pulls on the other car that is on the track between gears.

Stock torque dip matters, even on the track, and that was demonstrated by Justin majorly pulling on the stock car. Downshifting would have lost the PP BRZ even more time. He was in the right gear.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by dowroa

I think you may have missed that he (the modified car) pulls on the other car that is on the track between gears.

Stock torque dip matters, even on the track, and that was demonstrated by Justin majorly pulling on the stock car. Downshifting would have lost the PP BRZ even more time. He was in the right gear.

Even if you exclude torque dip out of the equation, if you are driving the car on track, out of the power band, it is not going to pull well.

I know situations arise that are not worth shifting down for, but torque dip excluded, in this example the car still is not going to pull well because you are out of the RPM range where the car makes the most power.

[dowroa]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Even if you exclude torque dip out of the equation, if you are driving the car on track, out of the power band, it is not going to pull well.

I know situations arise that are not worth shifting down for, but torque dip excluded, in this example the car still is not going to pull well because you are out of the RPM range where the car makes the most power.

*sigh* /me gives up on this as the user doesn't get it.

[p1l0t]

5252rpms is where the hp and the torque are always the same.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by dowroa

*sigh* /me gives up on this as the user doesn't get it.

Then explain it? Don't cop out. Having a constructive discussion is what adults do. There have been no name calling or derogatory remarks.

Your claim is that the mod'd car is pulling on the stock car because the stock car has torque dip.

My counter, is that even at the RPM's they are running that the car doesn't make power in that range anyway.

[dowroa]

@NoHaveMSG , I think you have been respectful, thank you. However, this discussion I believe goes beyond the scope of this specific thread.

To this tangent, I will end with the original point directly relevant to the thread was:

, it needed linear power delivery and no damn torque dip. Hardtop Miata for tall people such as myself is what this car basically is. I hope they don't blow it too far outside of lightweight/power. I do not want to see this become a turbo.

The video proves this point (torque dip, even a racing application or TNiA) is a liability and "downshifting' isn't the answer (with two good drivers).

A shift costs time that is / can be greater than sitting in the torque dip. Same with letting the car bang off the limiter before a braking zone. Therefore, in this case at that point on the track, the car *is* in the RPM band it needs to be in (for the current setup) and the torque dip does affect drivability. You lose more time shifting. In either situation, a car (STX prepped BRZ w/ACE headers and no more dip) with the same gearing and tires was superior proving the torque dip, even on full tilt, is a problem that needs to be rectified.

Yes, the STX BRZ had "some" additional engine performance from a tune, but as noted, nothing affected the performance in this situation as much as just the torque dip. That was the large, noticeable elephant in the room -- not STX prep vs DS prep levels.

Thanks for allowing the tangent, OP.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by dowroa

@NoHaveMSG , I think you have been respectful, thank you. However, this discussion I believe goes beyond the scope of this specific thread.

To this tangent, I will end with the original point directly relevant to the thread was:



The video proves this point (torque dip, even a racing application or TNiA) is a liability and "downshifting' isn't the answer (with two good drivers).

A shift costs time that is / can be greater than sitting in the torque dip. Same with letting the car bang off the limiter before a braking zone. Therefore, in this case at that point on the track, the car *is* in the RPM band it needs to be in (for the current setup) and the torque dip does affect drivability. You lose more time shifting. In either situation, a car (STX prepped BRZ w/ACE headers and no more dip) with the same gearing and tires was superior proving the torque dip, even on full tilt, is a problem that needs to be rectified.

Thanks for allowing the tangent, OP.

My solution was to gear the car down and extend over rev up top to keep the car higher into the RPM range without downshifting.

[86MLR]

Originally Posted by dowroa

hmm... respectfully disagree with proof of 100% stock BRZ PP and @justin 's STX prepped
and tuned 2017 BRZ on an uphill section.

Ah, to ensure I am contributing to the main point of the thread, I believe that small and light still need to be observed.

About 250hp at this weight and size is perfect.

If we expand the size, make it heavier or don't maintain the 6spd... those are all deal breakers for me and I will just look into doing something older.

Of course a prepared car will be quicker than a stock car.

What is the actual difference in the power levels?

My stock PP 86 was about 115kw, when it was tuned it was about 145kw., which would then walk past stock twins.

Kinda the point of tuning really.......his "evidence" = apples are not oranges

Unless I'm not picking up what your putting down.

[ROFL it's Waffle]

Originally Posted by PenGun

Thew torque dip does not matter at all. If you are using the car at all well, you will never see RPM that low.

You know what's ironic? I'm reading my previous post about my "dislike of forced induction." I'm days away from buying a supercharged S2000 LOL. The car is in amazing shape, the guy went the reliable power approach. to come.