What do you drive - MT or AT?

[russv]

Originally Posted by GenkiElite

You really are oblivious aren't you? You just see what you want. Do you think the Corrola is my only vehicle? Ive had well over 20 cars so far as well as a few sportbikes with the current being K6 GSXR 750. Did you notice the S14 listed as well as the Corolla? Yeah, that ones been purpose built and will twist your nuts till they fall off. I know what I'm doing and I know what I'm talking about. You have no leg to stand on. BTW no one was talking to you. You're the one who chimed in with his .02 that was off topic. Who the fucks trollin' Clint? Thanks for the

Like I said, you are unworthy and on the wrong forum.

[vtmike]

Originally Posted by MmmHamSandwich

While we ultimately may see the auto in different lights, I think the important thing to take away from this is you and I are both capable of utilizing masturbation references and constructive criticism all in the same thread.

If you'd like some insight from someone who owns a manual fr-s, my only complaint is the clutch engagement takes some getting used to. The shifter feel and throw is superb, comparably to an s2000. The pedal placement i find to be good, can heel toe pretty easily with some practice.

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[MmmHamSandwich]

Originally Posted by vtmike

If you'd like some insight from someone who owns a manual fr-s, my only complaint is the clutch engagement takes some getting used to. The shifter feel and throw is superb, comparably to an s2000. The pedal placement i find to be good, can heel toe pretty easily with some practice.

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I'm right there with you on the clutch. I am sure I'd adapt to it before long, but I really really would like at least some feedback from it.

I agree the shifter feel was awesome, better than my civic but a little more difficult to finesse given the high position (relative to the driver)

The pedal placement I found difficult to have too much of an opinion on simply because I have so much difficulty with heel toe to begin with. I've operated some reasonably complex machines with high learning curves and usually relish the challenge and the satisfaction of 'getting it right' but for several reasons, most of which I outlined in my lengthy post, I find trying to heel toe incredibly frustrating. I understand the concept, but the execution I have trouble with. I don't have an issue with driving in general, as I was competitive even in my rookie season of autocrossing, but this one aspect gives me issues.

I really envy anyone who can not only hold maximum braking pressure, but also accurately modulate it while precisely blipping the throttle to rev match. Not being able to do this, as I am sure you can imagine really impacts not just lap times on a road course, but even spirited legal driving. It does bother me, which is why being able to utilize maximum braking force, even with all tires sliding, and still being able to precisely downshift makes the auto rather tempting.

While I am sure several people on the forum understand this plight, I really do wonder how many people, even die hard MT fans, are oblivious to heel toe or just don't do it. Even amongst many car friends and acquaintances, I've only met a couple who will demonstrate competence with heel toe when prompted to.

[GenkiElite]

Originally Posted by russv

Like I said, you are unworthy and on the wrong forum.

"Unworthy", nice cop out. Sounds like someone has realized his mistake but can't man up to it. I bet you were a draft dodger too.

[vtmike]

Originally Posted by MmmHamSandwich

I'm right there with you on the clutch. I am sure I'd adapt to it before long, but I really really would like at least some feedback from it.

I agree the shifter feel was awesome, better than my civic but a little more difficult to finesse given the high position (relative to the driver)

The pedal placement I found difficult to have too much of an opinion on simply because I have so much difficulty with heel toe to begin with. I've operated some reasonably complex machines with high learning curves and usually relish the challenge and the satisfaction of 'getting it right' but for several reasons, most of which I outlined in my lengthy post, I find trying to heel toe incredibly frustrating. I understand the concept, but the execution I have trouble with. I don't have an issue with driving in general, as I was competitive even in my rookie season of autocrossing, but this one aspect gives me issues.

I really envy anyone who can not only hold maximum braking pressure, but also accurately modulate it while precisely blipping the throttle to rev match. Not being able to do this, as I am sure you can imagine really impacts not just lap times on a road course, but even spirited legal driving. It does bother me, which is why being able to utilize maximum braking force, even with all tires sliding, and still being able to precisely downshift makes the auto rather tempting.

While I am sure several people on the forum understand this plight, I really do wonder how many people, even die hard MT fans, are oblivious to heel toe or just don't do it. Even amongst many car friends and acquaintances, I've only met a couple who will demonstrate competence with heel toe when prompted to.

My issue I had with learning to heel toe in this car is the engine is a bit slow to rev requiring more throttle input than you think.

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[russv]

Originally Posted by GenkiElite

"Unworthy", nice cop out. Sounds like someone has realized his mistake but can't man up to it. I bet you were a draft dodger too.

2 tours in Viet Nam, moron!

[Touge_ninja]

Damn can we just lay off each others nuts and appreciate our cars? Damn it don't matter what forum you go to there will always be differences in opinion.

[GenkiElite]

Originally Posted by russv

2 tours in Viet Nam, moron!

At least you did something right troop. Had the same job just not the same place and time but your killin me with this grumpy old man shit. Lighten up.

[russv]

Originally Posted by Touge_ninja

Damn can we just lay off each others nuts and appreciate our cars? Damn it don't matter what forum you go to there will always be differences in opinion.

Done!

[jmaryt]

Originally Posted by russv

Your posts are unworthy of this forum!

i am sorry you feel that way! just stating my opinion in a "'somewhat"
dramatic way! to each their own! i feel certain in the "long" road ahead
that THIs car, being a "collaboration" of engineering,and "build quality"
from two "crackerjack" japanese car builders,one can be assured they have a
quality vehicle,when given proper maintenance will last a very long time.regardless of the chosen transmission!

[whateatsrabbits]

Originally Posted by MmmHamSandwich

I really envy anyone who can not only hold maximum braking pressure, but also accurately modulate it while precisely blipping the throttle to rev match. Not being able to do this, as I am sure you can imagine really impacts not just lap times on a road course, but even spirited legal driving. It does bother me, which is why being able to utilize maximum braking force, even with all tires sliding, and still being able to precisely down shift makes the auto rather tempting.

I agree with you there.

I heal tow everything I drive makes for a smoother down shift. I also do it instinctively when in a panic brake situation. Its easy just brake with your big toe and blip the throttle with your pinky toe. Or brake with toe, gas with heel, or my favorite brake with heal, gas with toe.

[jmaryt]

Originally Posted by vtmike

Honestly there isn't much value to be added with the way this thread has turned. The poll is useful to get a real world idea of manual transmission compared to automatic transmission purchase rates.

My main point was from a performance stand point this automatic brings nothing to the table like some claim. It is not a rapid shifting pdk or dsg as some have compared it to. The gearing is not nearly as aggressive as the manual which has a significant impact on track times and worsens the lack luster acceleration of this car. It weights more, and it has significantly more drive train loss (10+ whp loss compared to the manual transmission. )

as stated in a previous post,the 'driveline" "slop" in an auto cannot be engineered out,however,with that said,it is certainly "no" secret that autos have improved tremendously from even 10 years ago.your manual in THIS car still returns over 30 (m.p.g.),and because it is 'direct drive" gives the operator the purist driving experience,with "total" control,as opposed to a computer driving the car! in MY view,this "fact" makes a world of difference to me!

If these things don't matter to you and you prefer better gas mileage and easier bumper to bumper driving, then by all means go with the automatic (there are plenty available at the moment.)

this is very true! autos are all over the net! why? personal preference? perhaps,however,i believe most people want this car with a manual in it,because they want a total driving experience! my 2 cents!

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Originally Posted by vtmike

Agreed. Apparently a rare talent.

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Originally Posted by MmmHamSandwich

I'm right there with you on the clutch. I am sure I'd adapt to it before long, but I really really would like at least some feedback from it.

I agree the shifter feel was awesome, better than my civic but a little more difficult to finesse given the high position (relative to the driver)

The pedal placement I found difficult to have too much of an opinion on simply because I have so much difficulty with heel toe to begin with. I've operated some reasonably complex machines with high learning curves and usually relish the challenge and the satisfaction of 'getting it right' but for several reasons, most of which I outlined in my lengthy post, I find trying to heel toe incredibly frustrating. I understand the concept, but the execution I have trouble with. I don't have an issue with driving in general, as I was competitive even in my rookie season of autocrossing, but this one aspect gives me issues.

I really envy anyone who can not only hold maximum braking pressure, but also accurately modulate it while precisely blipping the throttle to rev match. Not being able to do this, as I am sure you can imagine really impacts not just lap times on a road course, but even spirited legal driving. It does bother me, which is why being able to utilize maximum braking force, even with all tires sliding, and still being able to precisely downshift makes the auto rather tempting.

While I am sure several people on the forum understand this plight, I really do wonder how many people, even die hard MT fans, are oblivious to heel toe or just don't do it. Even amongst many car friends and acquaintances, I've only met a couple who will demonstrate competence with heel toe when prompted to.

to me "heel and toe" competence is not a crucial factor i can understand the benefit of it,however you can still enjoy the car without knowing how to do that! take "rev matching" this "was" a procedure that was necessary "years ago" when trucks were equipped with "conical" manual gear boxes.you needed to "match" revs of the engine to the approximate revs"of the gear box in order to shift 'without crashing the gear box. "fuller road ranger" transmissions come to mind as the type of tranny this procedure was applicable to.with modern "helical" gear boxes,"rev matching " was no longer needed as the gears were 'cut" differently and "meshed" without rev matching either engine or transmission.also with the introduction of synchronizers rev matching has been relegated to oblivion. my "alleged" problem after driving manual for over 45 years is that i always 'double clutch" which is a driving tecnique i learned many years ago using 'conical" gear boxes in older tractors.can't seem to eliminate it,however,i still have faith that the build quality of the clutch will withstand my double clutching,and last for a very long time! the japanese have proven once again in the design ,and development of THIS car,that they are indeed master car builders.

Originally Posted by jmaryt

i am sorry you feel that way! just stating my opinion in a "'somewhat"
dramatic way! to each their own! i feel certain in the "long" road ahead
that THIs car, being a "collaboration" of engineering,and "build quality"
from two "crackerjack" japanese car builders,one can be assured they have a
quality vehicle,when given proper maintenance will last a very long time.regardless of the chosen transmission!

[MmmHamSandwich]

Originally Posted by jmaryt

to me "heel and toe" competence is not a crucial factor i can understand the benefit of it,however you can still enjoy the car without knowing how to do that! take "rev matching" this "was" a procedure that was necessary "years ago" when trucks were equipped with "conical" manual gear boxes.you needed to "match" revs of the engine to the approximate revs"of the gear box in order to shift 'without crashing the gear box. "fuller road ranger" transmissions come to mind as the type of tranny this procedure was applicable to.with modern "helical" gear boxes,"rev matching " was no longer needed as the gears were 'cut" differently and "meshed" without rev matching either engine or transmission.also with the introduction of synchronizers rev matching has been relegated to oblivion. my "alleged" problem after driving manual for over 45 years is that i always 'double clutch" which is a driving tecnique i learned many years ago using 'conical" gear boxes in older tractors.can't seem to eliminate it,however,i still have faith that the build quality of the clutch will withstand my double clutching,and last for a very long time! the japanese have proven once again in the design ,and development of THIS car,that they are indeed master car builders.

We have achieved +1 internets. We got everyone, even the thread troll, to make a serious beneficial post!

I disagree on a few points. Rev matching is still necessary today, unless you have a fancy auto throttle blip feature like on the 370Z. If you do not rev match on a downshift you prematurely wear the clutch and will upset the car's balance. The only way around this would be to use a combination of downshifting and letting the clutch out slowly to bring the revs up and generally just avoiding downshifting and waiting until the car is stopped and going all the way back to 1st gear. As laughable as that seems, I've seen plenty of people, even folks that think their MT is more manly, doing this not realizing they are using improper technique and would actually be better off with an auto.

Double clutching isn't necessary on modern cars, though admittedly I still do it regularly on downshifts as there were rumors going around that the Si's synchros were crap (really it was the CMC in my case) so I did it as a way of taking some load off the synchros, now it is habit. If you are rev matching as part of your double clutching you are actually doing your clutch a favor, not increasing wear.

Heel toe I think is still a critical part of properly utilizing a manual transmission, which is humorous because so few people do it. While casually driving around heel to is not necessary. You can just use standard rev matching.
However in a performance driving situation being in a gear that makes power at all times is important. And heel toe is useful in all situations even street driving and can even contribute to safety. whateatsrabbits asserts that (undoubtably via lots of practice and muscle memory) he utilizes heel toe in a panic stop. Now that's pretty handy. If I was in a panic stop I would have to forgo downshifting in an MT because I cannot reliably heel toe, especially under pressure when there is no time to think about it. If all you have to do is stop then that's fine, but if you have to suddenly accelerate again, I'd be at a serious disadvantage because at some point I'd have to either stop braking to downshift (increased braking distance), wait until stopped to shift into first and accelerate (time spent stationary which in a dynamic road situation might be dangerous)or just slam it into a lower gear and let the clutch out (risk upsetting the car's balance). If you can heel toe, or have an auto like this one, you avoid all these predicaments.

[vtmike]

Originally Posted by MmmHamSandwich

We have achieved +1 internets. We got everyone, even the thread troll, to make a serious beneficial post!

I disagree on a few points. Rev matching is still necessary today, unless you have a fancy auto throttle blip feature like on the 370Z. If you do not rev match on a downshift you prematurely wear the clutch and will upset the car's balance. The only way around this would be to use a combination of downshifting and letting the clutch out slowly to bring the revs up and generally just avoiding downshifting and waiting until the car is stopped and going all the way back to 1st gear. As laughable as that seems, I've seen plenty of people, even folks that think their MT is more manly, doing this not realizing they are using improper technique and would actually be better off with an auto.

Double clutching isn't necessary on modern cars, though admittedly I still do it regularly on downshifts as there were rumors going around that the Si's synchros were crap (really it was the CMC in my case) so I did it as a way of taking some load off the synchros, now it is habit. If you are rev matching as part of your double clutching you are actually doing your clutch a favor, not increasing wear.

Heel toe I think is still a critical part of properly utilizing a manual transmission, which is humorous because so few people do it. While casually driving around heel to is not necessary. You can just use standard rev matching.
However in a performance driving situation being in a gear that makes power at all times is important. And heel toe is useful in all situations even street driving and can even contribute to safety. whateatsrabbits asserts that (undoubtably via lots of practice and muscle memory) he utilizes heel toe in a panic stop. Now that's pretty handy. If I was in a panic stop I would have to forgo downshifting in an MT because I cannot reliably heel toe, especially under pressure when there is no time to think about it. If all you have to do is stop then that's fine, but if you have to suddenly accelerate again, I'd be at a serious disadvantage because at some point I'd have to either stop braking to downshift (increased braking distance), wait until stopped to shift into first and accelerate (time spent stationary which in a dynamic road situation might be dangerous)or just slam it into a lower gear and let the clutch out (risk upsetting the car's balance). If you can heel toe, or have an auto like this one, you avoid all these predicaments.

Definitely agree that the heel toe technique is still needed when you are tracking the car. If you don't you run the chance of unsettling the car at turn in, especially if you are trail braking.

Interesting you mention the 370Z, that feature as well as launch control is supposed to be added in the Visconti stage one flash in the near future. That could be a viable option if you go with the manual.

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